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rencreusé

English translation: a curved, setback, newel-post, elaborately carved in high relief

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:rencreusé
English translation:a curved, setback, newel-post, elaborately carved in high relief
Entered by: Christopher Crockett
Options:
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13:21 Jun 23, 2005
French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting / Staircases
French term or phrase: rencreusé
describing the staircase at

http://www.creamip.com/en/html/metiersdart/artisans/bois/voi...

The main feature is the ?????? sculpted central support.
Mark Nathan
France
Local time: 11:25
newelpost sculpted in high relief
Explanation:
Dusty's on the right track, but I'd prefer the UpScale "high relief" to the rather awkward "deep-carved" (esp. since I don't believe in Google-driven linguistics).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 38 mins (2005-06-23 13:59:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

True enough, \"high relief\" is rather the opposite of any of the other answers proposed so far, and all of those are closer *translations* of the original \"rencreusé\".

But I just can\'t think of any English term which approaches the description of relief carving from this \"negative\" perspective; and I\'ve never come across \"deep-carved\" before.

Looking at the sites which show up in a Google, they all look pretty proletarian, (e.g., http://www.executivegiftshoppe.com/depehost.html)
compared to the aristocratic feeling on this UpScale stairway site.

It just looks like \"high relief\", to me.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 43 mins (2005-06-23 14:04:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Dusty\'s point that \"there is a specifric term for that in Frnech [SIC], so why would they choose to use a different term here?\" is a good one.

However, the fact that \"rencreusé\" is (apparently) a neologism (not in any dictionary I can find in my university reference room) doesn\'t mean that we should necessarily use an English neologism in its translation --especially an awkward one like \"deep-carved\".

And, it doesn\'t look to me --from that .jpg of the thing-- that the newelpost is \"hollowed out or pierced\", just carved in very high relief.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 46 mins (2005-06-23 14:08:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It does occur to me that your target audience for such an item might well be more Nouuveau-Riche than Aristocratic, and it may be that, amongst those folks, \"deep-carved\" would appeal more than \"high relief\".

But I just don\'t like slumming.

Let the personalised hockeystick sites use \"deep carved\" and the rest Eat Cake.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 3 mins (2005-06-23 14:24:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Surfing through a few hard copy Unabridged English dictionaries, i can\'t find \"deep-carved\" in any of them, even the more recent ones, where \"deep-X\" terms have proliferated like zooids (there are almost none in the older ones).

We\'ve now got :

deep-chested
deep-dish
deep-discount
deep end
deep-freeze
deep-fried
deep-six

etc.

but no \"deep-carved\".

Needless to say, the stodgey old O.E.D. doesn\'t deign to recognise the term either.

Makes one wonder about the effect that the web will have on the evolution of the language.

Yet another aspect of the Guttenberg II Revolution.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 13 mins (2005-06-23 14:34:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Wow! This FRAYSSINHES Thierry guy does some *very* nice work.

http://www.creamip.com/en/html/metiersdart/artisans/bois/voi...

http://www.creamip.com/en/html/metiersdart/artisans/bois/voi...

I\'ve done a bit of joinery myself (on a much more modest scale) and I\'m impressed.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 52 mins (2005-06-23 15:13:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Regarding Dusty\'s interesting ideas:

\"the only other reference I came across to \'rencreusé\' on Google involved a training programme for staircase-makers\"

Yes, http://www.inoip.afpa.fr/outilPAP/formatio/ACCES_Ac.asp?num=...

and it looks to me like all it means there is \"a newelpost carved in high relief\".

\"so I suspect this may be a specific term peculiar to staircases, or at the very least, our master-craftsman here has used a term he came across during his training!\"

Yes, or perhaps he, himself, is responsible for the French neo-logism (no other sites with it to be found by Google!).

\"Further research seems to suggest the term \'high-relief\' applies only to cravings of figures etc. against a background, from which they stand out by \'more than half of their natural proportions\'\"

I don\'t know about that last bit, \"more than half...\"

To me, \"High Relief\" refers to anything that projects beyond its background more than \"Low Relief\", up to --nearly-- freestanding sculpture.

\"So I suspect the distinction that is being made here is the fact that this is a true, three-dimensional, free-standing carving, with no notion of \'background\' as such.\"

Well, the newel post itself is \"free-standing\", I suppose, but the sculpture on it appears to be in high-relief.

Ahhh.... *now* I see where we have all fallen into the Ditch:

Troubling, now that I read it again, is \"rencreusé **et** sculpté\" --which seems to imply that \"rencreusé\" doesn\'t apply to the sculpture at all, but rather (perhaps?) to the *shape* of the newelpost itself.

Could it be, do you suppose, \"a curve, setback, sculpted newelpost\"?

As I now read the .jpg, I see that the newel is not just a \"post\" but seems to curve upwards with the bannister/balustrade it marks the beginning of.

It starts on the first step and seems to end (with the part with the carved head) on the fourth step, curving back and up.

Change my answer to \"a curved, setback, newelpost, elaborately carved in high relief\".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 57 mins (2005-06-23 15:19:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Basically, we\'ve got a craft-specific neologism (perhaps coined by this Master Stairmaker himself), so we must, basically, define the term in the translation. There is no English equivalent that I know of (but I\'m definitely not a Master Stairmaker).

I\'d say, contact M. FRAYSSINHES Thierry himself and see if I\'m on the right track (shucks, if he\'s bi-lingual he might even know the English term, if there is one).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 13 mins (2005-06-23 15:34:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

There should be some way of working monx\'s \"concave\" idea in there, somehow, but I can\'t think of one yet.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs 41 mins (2005-06-23 17:02:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Note to Dusty:

No, I can\'t see how \"noyau\" could refer to anything other than the newel, which is at the base of the stairs, the beginning of the ballustrade.

I don\'t know what to call that spectacular.... bracing element in the upper left.
Selected response from:

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 05:25
Grading comment
Thank you
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +1newelpost sculpted in high relief
Christopher Crockett
4 +1fluted/hollowed out/concave
Paul Hirsh
3L-shapedxxxBourth
2 +1deep-c arved
Tony M
2hollowed out/scooped out/scallopedBruce Berger


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


18 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
rencreusé
fluted/hollowed out/concave


Explanation:
too many answers I know, excuses

Paul Hirsh
France
Local time: 11:25
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 24

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Christopher Crockett: Yes, I see what you mean now --the newel *itself* is "concave". The term has nothing to do with the sculptural decoration on it.
1 hr
  -> thanks
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

22 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
rencreusé
hollowed out/scooped out/scalloped


Explanation:
This is a bit of a guess, but from the image of the staircase, and the idea that the word carved is already used and reinforced by rencreusé, I'll go out on a limb based on the part "creusé" (= to be hollowed out). Some hyponyms for hollowed out would be along the lines of "scalloped" or "scooped out"?

Bruce Berger
Local time: 11:25
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

20 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): +1
rencreusé
deep-c arved


Explanation:
Well, although only a hunch, it seems to get a surprising number of Googles (almost 12,000), suggesting at least that it is a common-enough term; whether it is the RIGHT term for what you need, I don't know!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 44 mins (2005-06-23 14:05:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

deep-carved seems to refer (in a similar analogy I presume to \'deep-drawn\') to the fact that it is carved out of one solid lump of wood.

I would entirely agree with all CC\'s comments re: the up-market nature of this beautiful piece of work, and the need to find a fitting way of expressing it.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 46 mins (2005-06-23 14:08:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Interestingly, Chris, the only other reference I came across to \'rencreusé\' on Google involved a training programme for staircase-makers; so I suspect this may be a specific term peculiar to staircases, or at the very least, our master-craftsman here has used a term he came across during his training!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 20 mins (2005-06-23 14:42:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Further research seems to suggest the term \'high-relief\' applies only to cravings of figures etc. against a background, from which they stand out by \'more than half of their natural proportions\'

So I suspect the distinction that is being made here is the fact that this is a true, three-dimensional, free-standing carving, with no notion of \'background\' as such.

Tony M
France
Local time: 11:25
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 84

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Christopher Crockett: Proletarian Googling to the contrary notwithstanding, it appears from just looking at this magnificent thing that it is a question of "high relief" --a somewhat more UpScale term for what might just be a $omewhat Pricey bit of merchandise.
10 mins
  -> Thanks, Chris! I thought of that first, but what worried me was the fact that there is a specifric term for that in French, so why would they choose to use a different term here? // I think I now see what the difference is meant to be; please see note
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

28 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
rencreusé
newelpost sculpted in high relief


Explanation:
Dusty's on the right track, but I'd prefer the UpScale "high relief" to the rather awkward "deep-carved" (esp. since I don't believe in Google-driven linguistics).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 38 mins (2005-06-23 13:59:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

True enough, \"high relief\" is rather the opposite of any of the other answers proposed so far, and all of those are closer *translations* of the original \"rencreusé\".

But I just can\'t think of any English term which approaches the description of relief carving from this \"negative\" perspective; and I\'ve never come across \"deep-carved\" before.

Looking at the sites which show up in a Google, they all look pretty proletarian, (e.g., http://www.executivegiftshoppe.com/depehost.html)
compared to the aristocratic feeling on this UpScale stairway site.

It just looks like \"high relief\", to me.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 43 mins (2005-06-23 14:04:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Dusty\'s point that \"there is a specifric term for that in Frnech [SIC], so why would they choose to use a different term here?\" is a good one.

However, the fact that \"rencreusé\" is (apparently) a neologism (not in any dictionary I can find in my university reference room) doesn\'t mean that we should necessarily use an English neologism in its translation --especially an awkward one like \"deep-carved\".

And, it doesn\'t look to me --from that .jpg of the thing-- that the newelpost is \"hollowed out or pierced\", just carved in very high relief.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 46 mins (2005-06-23 14:08:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It does occur to me that your target audience for such an item might well be more Nouuveau-Riche than Aristocratic, and it may be that, amongst those folks, \"deep-carved\" would appeal more than \"high relief\".

But I just don\'t like slumming.

Let the personalised hockeystick sites use \"deep carved\" and the rest Eat Cake.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 3 mins (2005-06-23 14:24:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Surfing through a few hard copy Unabridged English dictionaries, i can\'t find \"deep-carved\" in any of them, even the more recent ones, where \"deep-X\" terms have proliferated like zooids (there are almost none in the older ones).

We\'ve now got :

deep-chested
deep-dish
deep-discount
deep end
deep-freeze
deep-fried
deep-six

etc.

but no \"deep-carved\".

Needless to say, the stodgey old O.E.D. doesn\'t deign to recognise the term either.

Makes one wonder about the effect that the web will have on the evolution of the language.

Yet another aspect of the Guttenberg II Revolution.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 13 mins (2005-06-23 14:34:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Wow! This FRAYSSINHES Thierry guy does some *very* nice work.

http://www.creamip.com/en/html/metiersdart/artisans/bois/voi...

http://www.creamip.com/en/html/metiersdart/artisans/bois/voi...

I\'ve done a bit of joinery myself (on a much more modest scale) and I\'m impressed.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 52 mins (2005-06-23 15:13:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Regarding Dusty\'s interesting ideas:

\"the only other reference I came across to \'rencreusé\' on Google involved a training programme for staircase-makers\"

Yes, http://www.inoip.afpa.fr/outilPAP/formatio/ACCES_Ac.asp?num=...

and it looks to me like all it means there is \"a newelpost carved in high relief\".

\"so I suspect this may be a specific term peculiar to staircases, or at the very least, our master-craftsman here has used a term he came across during his training!\"

Yes, or perhaps he, himself, is responsible for the French neo-logism (no other sites with it to be found by Google!).

\"Further research seems to suggest the term \'high-relief\' applies only to cravings of figures etc. against a background, from which they stand out by \'more than half of their natural proportions\'\"

I don\'t know about that last bit, \"more than half...\"

To me, \"High Relief\" refers to anything that projects beyond its background more than \"Low Relief\", up to --nearly-- freestanding sculpture.

\"So I suspect the distinction that is being made here is the fact that this is a true, three-dimensional, free-standing carving, with no notion of \'background\' as such.\"

Well, the newel post itself is \"free-standing\", I suppose, but the sculpture on it appears to be in high-relief.

Ahhh.... *now* I see where we have all fallen into the Ditch:

Troubling, now that I read it again, is \"rencreusé **et** sculpté\" --which seems to imply that \"rencreusé\" doesn\'t apply to the sculpture at all, but rather (perhaps?) to the *shape* of the newelpost itself.

Could it be, do you suppose, \"a curve, setback, sculpted newelpost\"?

As I now read the .jpg, I see that the newel is not just a \"post\" but seems to curve upwards with the bannister/balustrade it marks the beginning of.

It starts on the first step and seems to end (with the part with the carved head) on the fourth step, curving back and up.

Change my answer to \"a curved, setback, newelpost, elaborately carved in high relief\".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 57 mins (2005-06-23 15:19:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Basically, we\'ve got a craft-specific neologism (perhaps coined by this Master Stairmaker himself), so we must, basically, define the term in the translation. There is no English equivalent that I know of (but I\'m definitely not a Master Stairmaker).

I\'d say, contact M. FRAYSSINHES Thierry himself and see if I\'m on the right track (shucks, if he\'s bi-lingual he might even know the English term, if there is one).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 13 mins (2005-06-23 15:34:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

There should be some way of working monx\'s \"concave\" idea in there, somehow, but I can\'t think of one yet.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs 41 mins (2005-06-23 17:02:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Note to Dusty:

No, I can\'t see how \"noyau\" could refer to anything other than the newel, which is at the base of the stairs, the beginning of the ballustrade.

I don\'t know what to call that spectacular.... bracing element in the upper left.

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 05:25
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 46
Grading comment
Thank you

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tony M: As you say, Chris, I think we've all been barking up the wrong newel-post. I originally in fact thought it was referring to the beautiful, carved pillar on the left, but that can't be right...
10 mins
  -> Thanks, Dusty. // I think now that we've all fallen into the ditch, mis-read the original, not paying attention to the "et". It's not a question of the kind of carving at all, but of the *shape* of the newel itself. "Noyau" *must* be "newel[post]".
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
rencreusé
L-shaped


Explanation:
It looks to me as if this newel post is L-shaped, i.e. not exactly a "post" as one would normally expect, to match the gradual rise of the lower, deeper steps. The main vertical part of the newel post is placed where the stairs become steeper, with a shallow curved bit to extend the feature to the very start of the stairs. It almost looks as if it forms a seat, or at least a place where one COULD sit.

As to how to express that elegantly ...

xxxBourth
Local time: 11:25
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 94
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)




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