proposition martyre

English translation: throwaway proposal

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08:36 Mar 28, 2018
French to English translations [PRO]
Bus/Financial - Business/Commerce (general) / Technical documentation
French term or phrase: proposition martyre
"Intégration d’une proposition martyre de SWOT et restructuration du contenu"

This phrase appears in the log of revisions on a technical document (software development project specifications) being circulated for comments, approval, etc. I don't think anything of the wider context would be of any help here, as there is no further mention of this revision elsewhere in the document — it is quite a long way back from the current revision I am working on.

Clearly, the literal meaning of a 'sacrificial proposal / suggestion' makes some sense, but certainly wouldn't fit here in EN — and i had a sudden thought: could this be the FR way of expressing an "Aunt Sally" — a throwawyay suggestion that is put forward simply to get a discussion started... This would seem to make sense, both in terms of the literal translation, and also the context of multiple contributors to revising a complex document.

So has anyone else come across it before in this meaning, or found a more suitable translation solution?

Thanks in advance!
Tony M
France
Local time: 02:48
English translation:throwaway proposal
Explanation:
I haven't come across this before, but everything points towards it being a proposal that is put forward in the knowledge that it will be discarded.

See, for example, this page (admittedly from a Canadian site, but no less valid for that): http://www.lapresse.ca/environnement/201802/05/01-5152758-re...
Selected response from:

Rob Grayson
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:48
Grading comment
Thanks a lot, Rob! I feel you have perfectly understood the situation here, and "throwaway" was the term I ended up using — though to be on the safe side, I did put it within quotes!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +3throwaway proposal
Rob Grayson
4kickaround proposal
AllegroTrans
3first/initial proposal
Daryo
3provisional/conditional/rough-and-ready/extemporaneous proposal
AllegroTrans
Summary of reference entries provided
proposal to get the ball rolling
polyglot45

Discussion entries: 15





  

Answers


5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
throwaway proposal


Explanation:
I haven't come across this before, but everything points towards it being a proposal that is put forward in the knowledge that it will be discarded.

See, for example, this page (admittedly from a Canadian site, but no less valid for that): http://www.lapresse.ca/environnement/201802/05/01-5152758-re...

Rob Grayson
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:48
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 424
Grading comment
Thanks a lot, Rob! I feel you have perfectly understood the situation here, and "throwaway" was the term I ended up using — though to be on the safe side, I did put it within quotes!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  writeaway
12 mins

agree  Charles Davis: Good one. I entirely agree with your interpretation, which is supported by your ref. and also here (see esp. last part of section on pp. 203-204): https://books.google.es/books?id=a_uVDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT203
57 mins

neutral  polyglot45: I have the impression that is is not so much throwaway as a sacrificial lamb - it won't be discarded as such but reworked and torn to shreds. It gives them something to get their teeth into // therein lies the rub !
1 hr
  -> That may well be the function it's performing, but I don't think you'll find a concise EN term that covers it semantically

agree  Lorraine Dubuc: An idea that serves as a starting point but that will be deconstructed by other ideas.
3 hrs

neutral  Daryo: the point is not that it will be discarded - the point is that that proposal will be subjected to intensive fire / will be bashed mercilessly ("martyred") - nothing to say that the initial proposal must sink/be discarded if it's a good one.
12 hrs
  -> You mean just like a "martyr" needn't necessarily be killed? ;)
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12 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
first/initial proposal


Explanation:
Certainly doesn't sound as dramatic as "martyre", but I think it simply boils down to that.

Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:48
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in SerbianSerbian, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 118
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks a lot for your help, Daryo! Although it doesn't need to be "dramatic", it does have to be distinguished from other initial proposals already being made, and the idea of 'martyre' is very clearly to do with someone's sticking their neck out and making a suggestion that they fully expect to get shot down in flames!

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15 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
provisional/conditional/rough-and-ready/extemporaneous proposal


Explanation:
A few ideas
The French doesn't translate directly into anything usable here

AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:48
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 269
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks, C! Of all those suggestions, i think the first 25 could have worked, the last 2 would I think have sat rather awkwardly; but overall, I prefer your second suggestion.

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2 days 55 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
kickaround proposal


Explanation:
A new flash of inspiration. Sorry if I am breaking KudoZ rules by posting twice.

Kick around | Define Kick around at Dictionary.com
www.dictionary.com/browse/kick--around

kick about, to move from place to place frequently: He kicked about a good deal before settling down. 25. kick around, Informal. to treat (someone) harshly or inconsiderately. to consider, discuss, or speculate about (a proposal, project, etc.): We kicked around various ideas for raising money. to experiment with. to pass time ...




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Note added at 3 days 2 hrs (2018-03-31 10:42:30 GMT)
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Kick around - Idioms by The Free Dictionary
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/kick around

To give thought or consideration to something; ponder or discuss something: We've been kicking around the names that you gave us, but none seems appropriate for the position. Chris and I have kicked the idea around, and we both agree that we should buy a new car. 4.

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Note added at 3 days 2 hrs (2018-03-31 10:42:59 GMT)
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kick around (an idea) - idioms 4 you
www.idioms4you.com/complete-idioms/kick-around-an-idea.html

Idiom Definition - to kick around (an idea) - to casually talk about or brainstorm an idea or suggestion or problem.
Kick around definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/kick-ar...

kick around. If you kick around ideas or suggestions, you discuss them informally. If you say that someone kicks you around, you do not like the way that they treat you because it is unfair.

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Note added at 3 days 2 hrs (2018-03-31 10:45:07 GMT)
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NOTE:

I have also discovered "straw man proposal" (seems to be used in Australia) and "kick-ass proposal" (used in USA)

AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:48
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 269
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks, C! I think this is indeed the right concepot: an idea being thrown in just for people to kick around in discussion. I would probably have used this, but sadly your suggestion came in after i had already sent of my document.

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Reference comments


54 mins peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: proposal to get the ball rolling

Reference information:
Méthodes d'éducation populaire - Education-populaire.fr
www.education-populaire.fr/methodes-en-vrac/
En amont de la réunion, préparer une proposition martyre. Au cours de la réunion, on va organiser plusieurs séquences : – Un tour de questions de compréhensions – Un tour de points de vigilance : « attention, si on fait ça… » – Un tour de désaccords : les participants peuvent alors poser des véto sur les points qui les ...

polyglot45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 88

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  philgoddard: People often use this term on KudoZ - I thought you were too! You could also say tentative proposal.
4 hrs
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