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communauté légale ou conventionnelle

English translation: statutory marriage system (without a contract) other marriage systems (with a contract)

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16:26 Nov 11, 2013
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law: Contract(s) / Matrimonial situation
French term or phrase: communauté légale ou conventionnelle
Context: (in an agreement on share ownership between partners/associates/shareholders) "En cas de liquidation de communauté légale ou conventionnelle de biens ayant existe entre un associé et son conjoint..."

I understand the two types of marriage contract, communauté légale being the marriage contract wherein assets owned by each party at the start of the marriage remain their own, while assets acquired after the marriage are owned in common, and communauté conventionnelle being a marriage contract based on a separate specific contract or prenuptual agreement.
However, does anyone know of a good English equivalent that could be used to translate these concepts (without all the verbiage to explain them)? Thanks in advance
Mary Holihan
United States
Local time: 06:15
English translation:statutory marriage system (without a contract) other marriage systems (with a contract)
Explanation:
You might need to be a little more elegant in your turn of phrase than I have been, but the point o get across is that your original is distinguishing two possibilities : with or without a marriage contract. Just a word to point out that there is a misunderstanding in your reading of the original. There is no contrat in the "communauté légale", also known as the "communauté de droit commun". It is the "régime" which prevails in the event of their being no contract.
http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F948.xhtml
The reference to "conventionnelle" means in reference to a "convention", in other words, a contract.
That is the only distinction you need to worry about in your English rendering. The original as posted does not require you to specify details of the various forms of contractual systems which exist.
The original distinguishes the statutory régime (no contract) from all the others (with a contract).

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Note added at 2 hrs (2013-11-11 18:43:17 GMT)
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Oops, what a horrible typo : in the event of THERE being no contract. Ooo, la hoonte!

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Note added at 2 hrs (2013-11-11 18:46:45 GMT)
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"En cas de liquidation de communauté légale ou conventionnelle de biens ayant existe entre un associé et son conjoint..."

In the event of a partner and his spouse liquidating their marital régime, whether under the statutory no contract system or one of the systems with a contract..."

So that is one solution. There are many others.


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Note added at 2 hrs (2013-11-11 18:52:25 GMT)
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"In the event of a partner and his spouse liquidating their maritalrégime, whether with or without a marriage contract, the statutory default régime being without a contract".

The rest of the text will give an idea as to the register required of course. I quite like - and have seen - the term "régime" used in English texts. Sometimes the word "system" can be used, but i think the original term can sometimes be used quite successfully.


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Note added at 2 hrs (2013-11-11 18:57:26 GMT)
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The eventual merits/failings of one or the other systems are not relevant in this phrase. The moot point relates to the existence/absence of a contract, the statutory default system being absence of contract. To start defining details of the various types of contract here would be overtranslating.
Selected response from:

Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Local time: 12:15
Grading comment
This is the most succinct, which is what I was looking for. Rikki S.D.'s solution makes the concept very clear, but I am not sure that I need to be quite so detailed. Thank you all!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +2statutory marriage system (without a contract) other marriage systems (with a contract)
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
4community or other marital propertyrkillings
4statutory or contractual joint ownership
AllegroTrans
3statutory scheme of after-acquired community property or contractual pre- /post-nupxxxAdrian MM.
4 -2statutory community of marital property
Christi Bishop Vergez
Summary of reference entries provided
Default marital property regime
Tim Webb

Discussion entries: 9





  

Answers


13 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -2
statutory community of marital property


Explanation:
Hi Mary,
My Council of Europe French-English Legal Dictionary defines "communauté légale" as "statutory community of marital property". Their definition of "conventionnelle" also confirms what you've said with "based on or arising out of an agreement, contract or treaty". Sorry, but I wasn't able to find a short English equivalent for the latter.

Christi Bishop Vergez
France
Local time: 12:15
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  philgoddard: You can't ignore conventionnelle.
10 mins

disagree  AllegroTrans: a community is a group of individuals, a town etc. Despite what the Council of Europe says, their term is unintelligible to EN-spkg lawyers
42 mins

disagree  Manoj Chauhan: Agree with philgoddard
1 day18 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
statutory or contractual joint ownership


Explanation:
This is a case where you have to be practical - no EN-spkg lawyer is going to understand "community" as part of this translation. Effectively "communauté" means jointly owned, or more acuurately perhaps "held in common".



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Note added at 1 hr (2013-11-11 17:31:19 GMT)
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Régime de la communauté légale



Avec le régime de la communauté légale :

Chacun reste propriétaire ce dont il était déjà propriétaire lors du mariage, ainsi que de tout ce qu'il pourra venir à recueillir au cours du mariage par voie de donation, succession ou legs, ce sont les Biens Propres,

Par contre, tous les biens acquis pendant le mariage ainsi que vos revenus seront communs, quelque soit celui des deux époux qui est à l'origine des revenus, ce sont Les Biens communs, aussi appelés Acquets,



Chaque époux a la libre disposition et la libre administration de ses biens propres. Chacun a la pleine capacité d'administrer les biens communs, mais toutes les opérations importantes concernant les biens communs devront recueillir la signature des deux époux.

Quant aux dettes, hormis celles concernant les biens propres, elles sont communes et engagent tous les acquets, quelque soit celui des deux époux qui les a contractées.

Lorsque votre mariage prendra fin (en cas de divorce ou de décès de l'un des époux), chacun reprendra ses biens propres tandis que la communauté sera liquidée, c'est à dire partagée en deux parts égales.

Ce régime de communauté convient souvent à beaucoup de couples, sans autre modification mais il vous est loisible de le modifier pour l'adapter à votre situation personnelle en y adjoignant certaines clauses. Il vous est également loisible d'adopter un autre type de régime matrimonial.

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Note added at 1 hr (2013-11-11 18:23:36 GMT)
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CONVENTIONNEL, ELLE (adj.)[kon-van-sio-nèl, nèl' ; en poésie, de cinq syllabes]

1. Qui résulte d'une convention. Valeur conventionnelle.

En termes de droit, opposé à légal ou à judiciaire. Acte, clause conventionnelle, acte, clause qui est l'oeuvre de la volonté des parties.

AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:15
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 422

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Nikki Scott-Despaigne: I agree with the first half, but "conventionnel" is being used here to describe collectively the systems with a contract, and there are several.
18 mins
  -> there are indeed several, depending on the precise contract signed by the spouses, but they are all "contractual" in contrast to the statutory situation which presumes individual ownership

neutral  GILOU: Vous passez à côté de la traduction de conventional ici....Votre traduction met l'accent sur le côté légal et contractuel mais pas conventionnel....
41 mins
  -> conventionnel = par voie d'un contrat/convention/accord des parties; "conventional" (EN) s'agit d'un faux ami
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
statutory marriage system (without a contract) other marriage systems (with a contract)


Explanation:
You might need to be a little more elegant in your turn of phrase than I have been, but the point o get across is that your original is distinguishing two possibilities : with or without a marriage contract. Just a word to point out that there is a misunderstanding in your reading of the original. There is no contrat in the "communauté légale", also known as the "communauté de droit commun". It is the "régime" which prevails in the event of their being no contract.
http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F948.xhtml
The reference to "conventionnelle" means in reference to a "convention", in other words, a contract.
That is the only distinction you need to worry about in your English rendering. The original as posted does not require you to specify details of the various forms of contractual systems which exist.
The original distinguishes the statutory régime (no contract) from all the others (with a contract).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-11-11 18:43:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oops, what a horrible typo : in the event of THERE being no contract. Ooo, la hoonte!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-11-11 18:46:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"En cas de liquidation de communauté légale ou conventionnelle de biens ayant existe entre un associé et son conjoint..."

In the event of a partner and his spouse liquidating their marital régime, whether under the statutory no contract system or one of the systems with a contract..."

So that is one solution. There are many others.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-11-11 18:52:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"In the event of a partner and his spouse liquidating their maritalrégime, whether with or without a marriage contract, the statutory default régime being without a contract".

The rest of the text will give an idea as to the register required of course. I quite like - and have seen - the term "régime" used in English texts. Sometimes the word "system" can be used, but i think the original term can sometimes be used quite successfully.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-11-11 18:57:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The eventual merits/failings of one or the other systems are not relevant in this phrase. The moot point relates to the existence/absence of a contract, the statutory default system being absence of contract. To start defining details of the various types of contract here would be overtranslating.

Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Local time: 12:15
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 160
Grading comment
This is the most succinct, which is what I was looking for. Rikki S.D.'s solution makes the concept very clear, but I am not sure that I need to be quite so detailed. Thank you all!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  GILOU
9 mins

neutral  AllegroTrans: the starting point here is that we have "communauté" (joint ownership) so your answer is really an explanation rather than a translation of the asker's actual term
12 mins
  -> Yes, the point being that the understanding of the original has to be clear first. I have now posted a suggested rendering. It is essential to convey that the original is seeking to distinguish bewteen marraiges with/without contract.

agree  Peter LEGUIE: Yes, the "communauté légale" is "le système prévu par la loi, en l'absence de contrat rédigé par les parties", as you explained.
43 mins
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8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
communauté légale ou conventionnelle de biens
community or other marital property


Explanation:
Translate the whole phrase, up to and including 'biens'. This is ultimately about liquidating property assets.
The property is either community property, under a community-property regime for marriage, or it's not, it's just other marital property for some other reason. Probably best to avoid words like 'statutory' and 'contract' altogether, esp. for American readers, given that in the US non-community-property states are also known as 'common-law states'.

But in fact there is no problem in legal English with two spouses constituting a 'community' in respect of property ownership. The usage of the noun by itself, non-attributively, is inherent in the established term. For example, see the opening sentences of this article in the California Law Review from 1934:
"The Interest of a Wife in California Community Property

The complexity of the problems concerning marital property rights
is not novel. Legal history indicates that such rights sprang from
local customs and often varied in different communities of the same
country. In so far as the community property system is concerned
even its ancestry is not entirely agreed upon by those who have interested themselves in the matter, and those jurisdictions which accept it as the basis of marital property rights have no uniform theory as to the exact nature of the property interests existing in the parties to the marital relation. In some, ownership is said to reside in a legal personality known as the community, which is considered as distinct from the parties, in others the husband and wife are treated as co-owners on one basis or another, and in still others the entire title is in the husband subject to an interest vesting in the wife only when the community is terminated."




    Reference: http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/californialawreview/vol2...
rkillings
United States
Local time: 03:15
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 105
Notes to answerer
Asker: I don't understand what happened. I decided upon your translation, and was on your reply when I hit enter, but it shows Rikki S.D.'s as chosen. I must have done something wrong. Thank you for your help.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  AllegroTrans: Despite this term being used in SOME parts of USA I think most people including lawyers, would imagine it means property belonging to a whole community
2 days22 hrs
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15 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
statutory scheme of after-acquired community property or contractual pre- /post-nup


Explanation:
Conventionelle refers to the French/Roman law and no other system.

Community property IS understood as a civil law concept by Anglo-American family lawyers and courts.

The pre- or post-nuptial settlement may vary the joint ownership and give one spouse absolutely nothing.

Example sentence(s):
  • La COMMUNAUTÉ qui peut être légale ou conventionnelle. Par contrat, les époux peuvent modifier les règles du code civil www.affection.org/mariage/Marriagefrancais9.html‎
  • Community property is a marital property regime that originated in civil law jurisdictions and is now also found in some common law jurisdictions.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_property
xxxAdrian MM.
Local time: 12:15
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 348
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Reference comments


17 hrs peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: Default marital property regime

Reference information:
I have found this document to be extremely useful for all things "contrat de mariage".
Read page 7 if nothing else.
Some vital phrases: marital property agreement ("contrat de mariage")
default marital property regime ("régime légal")
immediate community of acquests (régime de la communauté réduite aux acquêts)
Opt out of the default regime (signer un contrat de mariage)


    Reference: http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/docs/cp198_Marital_Prope...
Tim Webb
France
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 24

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Karen Stokes: Thanks, Tim - very useful background reading
3 days21 hrs
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