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d'autant moins se dispenser de

English translation: the phrase is "d'autant moins ...... que" - which is VERY important ....

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10:13 Dec 8, 2003
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents
French term or phrase: d'autant moins se dispenser de
I was hoping someone could help with a neat way of translating this is an 'attendu que' clause.

The issue is that the arbitrators did not rule on applicable law in spite of being requested to do so by the parties in the case.

'Attendu que les Arbitres pouvaient d'autant moins se dispenser de déterminer le droit national applicable que l'application du droit anglaise était expressément prévue à la clause 24 du connaissement et....

TIA for any suggestions
Helen Jordan
Local time: 01:12
English translation:the phrase is "d'autant moins ...... que" - which is VERY important ....
Explanation:
since the sentence then, literally translated, means ... Whereas the arbitrators were all the less able to dispense with the need to determine the national law that should apply in that provision was expressly made for application of "English" law in Clause....
OR
Whereas the arbitrators had even less excuse for failing to apply... given that Clause X expressly stipulated that.... should apply

HTH
Selected response from:

xxxCMJ_Trans
Local time: 02:12
Grading comment
Thanks for your explanation of the content, which was just what I needed!! Thanks for other contributions too!!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4could not allow themeselves not to
Abdellatif Bouhid
4The arbitrators were all the less entitled to dispense with ruling on...
Richard Benham
5 -1could not obviate the applicable national law insofar as the application of English law was etc.Jane Lamb-Ruiz
3 +1the phrase is "d'autant moins ...... que" - which is VERY important ....xxxCMJ_Trans
4especially not dispense with
lenkl
3was still less justified in failing to...
William Stein


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


27 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
especially not dispense with


Explanation:
Whereas the Arbitrators could especially not dispense with...

lenkl
Local time: 02:12
PRO pts in pair: 827

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: this is poor legal style though the meaning is correct
5 hrs
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50 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
was still less justified in failing to...


Explanation:
Assuming there's a previous "Whereas" clause:

Whereas the Arbitrators were still less justified in failing to determine the applicable national law on the grounds that Clause 24 of the waybill expressly stipulated the applicability of English law

Maybe the issue is that the clauses in waybills and bills of lading are considered to be secondary agreements that are not automatically incorporated into the main agreement (this is sometimes called the "la guerre des formulaires", when the offeror and offeree keep sending each other forms with contradictory terms and conditions in fine print on the back). In that case, even though the waybill expressly stated bla, bla, bla, it's not automatically true and the question should have been examined by the arbitrators.


William Stein
Costa Rica
Local time: 19:12
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 1737

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Richard Benham: I'd go for "given that" (?possibly even "since")...but the right idea!
5 hrs

disagree  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: I really don't want to comment on your answers anymore. BUT, you really should check before you start making false claims. obviate in the negative is VERY USED in law and especially in the UK.
1 day 2 hrs
  -> 1) Where did I say it wasn't used in the negative? The problem is that "does/does not not make the national law unnecessary" has nothing to do with the sentence to be translated. And why are you disagreeing with my answer?
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
the phrase is "d'autant moins ...... que" - which is VERY important ....


Explanation:
since the sentence then, literally translated, means ... Whereas the arbitrators were all the less able to dispense with the need to determine the national law that should apply in that provision was expressly made for application of "English" law in Clause....
OR
Whereas the arbitrators had even less excuse for failing to apply... given that Clause X expressly stipulated that.... should apply

HTH

xxxCMJ_Trans
Local time: 02:12
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 5264
Grading comment
Thanks for your explanation of the content, which was just what I needed!! Thanks for other contributions too!!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: it is very important but I do not think one can say in a formal legal document 'to have less of an excuse for" because it is too colloquial, IMO
4 hrs
  -> it was meant as an explanation of the grammatical content, no more, no less but thanks for your didactic (or should that be "dictatorial"?) input

agree  Richard Benham: Good point. First rendering OK, but "given that" might work better than "in that". Or, for really pompous effect, how about "inasmuch as".
4 hrs
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): -1
could not obviate the applicable national law insofar as the application of English law was etc.


Explanation:


d'autant plus que
d'autant moins que

These stylistic devices can be resolved through proper use of semantics in English.

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Note added at 2003-12-08 15:55:47 (GMT)
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It actually means: There was all the more reason for not overlooking the applicable national law

NOW:

How do you say that in elegant English?

Along with your other list of whereases:

\"Whereas the Arbitrators could not obviate the applicable national law insofar as the application of English law was expressly stated in the etc\"\'

That\'s how.

Cheers



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Note added at 2003-12-08 15:58:49 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

English does not use this \"there was all the more reason to\" in this type of context...we would just state the thing out. \'\'all the more reason to\" though the translation from the French is not the right style in English, whereas \'\'obviate\" plus \'\'insofar as\" x is the proper legal style.

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Note added at 2003-12-08 16:40:17 (GMT)
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NOTE:

to NOT OBVIATE= they could not make applicable law NOT NECESSARY or UNECESSARY
ERGO, to have to apply in the context!!!!

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Note added at 2003-12-09 13:51:38 (GMT)
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ONE REFERENCE FOR THOSE who think one cannot \"not obviate\".

\"In Appeal Nos. 990687 and 982047, supra, we opined that a contractor could not obviate its duty to provide workers’ compensation etc\"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Note added at 2003-12-09 13:52:58 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

from: http://www.twcc.state.tx.us/appeals/appdfile/2003cases/03024...

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Note added at 2003-12-09 13:54:13 (GMT)
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AND ANOTHER:
The Court of Appeals affirmed the Appellate Division\'s dismissal of plaintiff\'s second action, in which the Appellate Division held that the toll of CPLR 205(a) could not obviate the requirements of a statutory condition precedent to suit. Section 7107, which waives the Port Authority\'s sovereign immunity, permits a suit against the Port Authority only when the action is commenced within one year.

But I will let my colleagues use google to find this one....

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Note added at 2003-12-09 13:55:07 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

IN THE UK, VERY USED:

... In any case it could not obviate implicit pressure from doctors, nurses, relatives
or carers, for the patient to decline otherwise appropriate treatment. ...
www.catholicdoctors.org.uk/Submissions/ Mental%20Incapacity%20231.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar pages

Who Decides - Response
... It could not obviate implicit pressure from doctors, nurses, relatives or
carers, for the patient to decline otherwise appropriate treatment. ...
www.catholicdoctors.org.uk/Submissions/ JEMC%20Who%20Decides.htm - 60k - Cached - Similar pages

SurfWax -- News, Articles and Reviews On Hysterectomy
... that a third were not medically justified (The Times (subscription), UK). ... She had
also undergone five operations elsewhere, but could not obviate the pain from ...
health.surfwax.com/files/Hysterectomy.html - 45k - Cached - Similar pages



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Note added at 2003-12-09 14:00:40 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

\"NOT OBVIATE\" IS A VALID LEGAL TERM IN THE US AND THE UK AND OBVIATES THE NEED TO USE AWKWARD AND BAD ENGLISH TO RENDER FRENCH STYLISTIC DEVICES.



Jane Lamb-Ruiz
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in pair: 8576

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  William Stein: Misuuse of "obviate", which means "to make unnecessary". You can't make the national law unnecessary, it's determining which law is applicable that is at issue.
24 mins
  -> could NOT OBVIATE...could not make it unnecessary....could you please reread...right they could not obviate it, they HAD TO APPLY IT....duh

agree  writeaway: se dispenser de =get out of/avoid=obviate. nothing to do with justification.
1 hr
  -> thanx writeaway...

disagree  Richard Benham: William's right: you can't "obviate", i.e. do away with, national law. You **could** "obviate the need to rule on/determine applicable national law". But why use such an inapproprate and **silly** word anyway?
3 hrs
  -> See my references, time to fall on your sword maybe? Or is that passé?? :) Cowboy up, Richard!
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8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
could not allow themeselves not to


Explanation:
..

Abdellatif Bouhid
Local time: 20:12
Native speaker of: Native in ArabicArabic, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in pair: 390
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9 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
The arbitrators were all the less entitled to dispense with ruling on...


Explanation:
...applicable national law in the light of the express provison in clause 24 of the bill of lading that English law should apply and ...

You might have to adjust the grammar to fit whatever happens after "et", but that's a fair stab.

I suppose William's "waybill" might be an alternative to "bill of lading", which is given by Baleyte et al: "Dictionnaire économique et juridique" 5e édition, L.G.D.J., and is also a term I am familiar with and which fits the context.

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Note added at 2003-12-09 18:33:06 (GMT)
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Re \"obviate\": in her reference, JLR has provided a perfect example of the standard use of the word \"obviate\". It means to do away with, avoid, or the like. In her example, the \"contractor could not obviate its duty\". Fine. But it is nonsense to talk about \"obviating\" the applicable national law. What the arbitrators are supposed to have tried to \"obviate\", if anything, is the need to rule on applicable national law. It would be nice, sometimes, to be able to \"obviate\" the law, but, if this were possible, it would no longer be the law.

Richard Benham
France
Local time: 02:12
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 614

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxCMJ_Trans: of course, this is a better rendering - as I was in a hurry, I decided to deal with the grammatical point, since I thought it had been missed in earlier answers but it's good that someone should come in and finish the job
11 hrs
  -> Thanks. You were right to point out the grammatical point. I was a bit disappointed in some colleagues for missing it.

disagree  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: it does not mean entitled to and you should check re "not obviate" before getting more egg on your face....
18 hrs
  -> To be not entitled to is commonplace inlegal language in the required sense. "Obviate" means to avoid or do away with, as in your reference. It doesn't fit here
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