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débredinoire

English translation: tomb-shrine, foramina

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:débredinoire
English translation:tomb-shrine, foramina
Entered by: Florence B
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00:39 Nov 11, 2003
French to English translations [PRO]
/ church architecture?
French term or phrase: débredinoire
it's in an ancient abbey church, and an illustration shows what looks like a sarcophagus with holes on the sides, into which one can put one's head.

I'm looking for an equivalent English term.
Guy Bray
United States
Local time: 03:27
I would not traslate
Explanation:
-

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Note added at 2003-11-11 01:11:07 (GMT)
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can\'t spell translate at this time of night !
Selected response from:

Kpy
France
Local time: 12:27
Grading comment
The solution I was coming to myself. Thanks!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +2- for the record, post grading - "tomb-shrine" and "foramina"
Florence B
3 +2I would not traslateKpy
3sarcophagus with holes or debredinoire for mental healing rituals
Jean-Luc Dumont


  

Answers


18 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
I would not traslate


Explanation:
-

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-11-11 01:11:07 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

can\'t spell translate at this time of night !


    Reference: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=d%C3%A9bredinoire&hl=en&ie=...
Kpy
France
Local time: 12:27
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in pair: 190
Grading comment
The solution I was coming to myself. Thanks!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  PB Trans
4 mins

agree  toubabou
41 mins
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
sarcophagus with holes or debredinoire for mental healing rituals


Explanation:
not an answer - not translating "it" is ok, wonder if a little bit of "explaining" would not make it more intellectually satisfying...


it was part of a tradition of passage rituals - as in passage through a hole to be cured from various ailments - mental illness or others

did déberdinoire/débredinoire give bredin or vice versa?

I wonder if deberdinoire how it is said to be pronounced is not a deformation of verrine or veyrine = hole

Les malades et les maladie mentales ont existé de tout temps. Et de même que dans la Grèce antique des médecins s’employaient à les soigner, se posera au Moyen-Âge, les moyens étant limités, l’insondable question de la folie et de ses mode de prise en charge par la société. Selon Muriel Laharie 18 des dizaines de saints étaient réputés guérir à, la folie, l’idiotie, l’épilepsie, entre autres maladies. À côté de saints “généralistes”, certains étaient spécialisés, notamment saint Antonin, abbé de Sorrente, saint Amateur, évêque d’Auxerre, saint Anastase-le-sinaïte, saint Bertaud, sainte Berthe, puis saint Brieuc, saint Colomban, etc, et parmi ceux dont l’existence ou la mort ont donné l’occasion de créer des lieux de pèlerinage célèbres, saint Dizier, évêque à Rennes, saint Menoux, d’origine irlandaise qui aurait été évêque de Quimper et fondé l’abbaye de Saint Menoux dans le Bourbonnais et dont il est encore question à Ainay-le-Château, saint Willibrod, archevêque d’Utrecht, sont ceux dont la trace n’a pas été perdue


Tout un ensemble comportemental que l’on peut rattacher aux rites de passage est fréquemment retrouvé, notamment à Geel, où le malade doit passer tous les jours de la neuvaine sous la châsse contenant les reliques de la sainte, ou sous un sarcophage à Saint-Bonnet et à Saint-Dizier. Proche de ce rituel est l’obligation qui est faite au malade de passer la tête dans un trou circulaire creusé dans une tombe, le “déberdinoire” ou “débredinoir” (d’où est venu le mot “bredin” par lequel encore à l’heure actuelle l’on désigne les malades mentaux dans la région), à Saint-Menoux, ou par des orifices présentés par des tombeaux, comme à Saint-Pair-sur-Mer. On peut en rapprocher le “casque de Saint Grat” ou la “tuile de sainte Dymphne” que les fous devaient aussi porter à certaines périodes. À cette dimension de “passage” s’ajoute, lorsque le sujet doit introduire toute ou partie de son corps dans un orifice, un rite de dépôt de la folie dans un lieu sacré. Le moment où comme à Geel, où comme à Reims le malade devait toucher les reliques est une séquence symbolique fortement chargée de sens.


Go to this page to better understand - interesting

http://www.rectoversion.com/UK/contact_lapage13.htm

Jean-Luc Dumont
France
Local time: 12:27
Native speaker of: French
PRO pts in pair: 1108
Grading comment
I'm going with débredinoire, but thanks for all the info.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)
The asker has declined this answer
Comment: I'm going with débredinoire, but thanks for all the info.

2 days15 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
débredinoire
- for the record, post grading - "tomb-shrine" and "foramina"


Explanation:
I have been puzzled by this question and asked it in turn on a medieval architecture list I'm subscribed to -
Somebody gave that answer (Thank you Sarah):

There are two terms used in English publications for "débredinoire":
"tomb-shrine" and "foramina."

The first is used by John Crook in _The Architectural Setting of the Cult of Saints in the Early Christian West c. 300-c. 1200_ (Oxford, 2000), pp. 253-267.

The second term is used by Ben Nilson in _Cathedral Shrines of Medieval England_ (Boydell, 1998), pp. 45-47. The term derives from the Latin "foramen" or opening.

There are documents attesting to the use of this kind of tomb/shrine (etc.) such as the tomb of St. Felix of Nola in Paulinus, St. Dagobert (Stenay, Meuse), St. Regina, and in England, St. Chad. Later examples (Thomas Becket, St. Omer (Pas-de-Calais), St. Etienne (Aubazine), St. Bertelin (Ilam, Staffordshire), St. Candida (Dorset), St. Swithun (Winchester), and St. Osmund (Salisbury). These later examples were influenced by the use of this "foramina/tomb-shrine" for the tomb of Christ in the Church of the Holy Sepluchre in Jerusalem. For bibliography of this tomb and its influence on
other tombs and its appearance in pictorial art, see the work of Stephen Lamia, _Sepulcrum domini: The Iconography of the Holed Tomb of Christ in Romanesque and Gothic Art_ (PhD diss, 1982) and Martin Biddle, _The Tomb of Christ_ (Stroud, 1999).

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Note added at 2 days 18 hrs 59 mins (2003-11-13 19:39:20 GMT) Post-grading
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I have asked before mentioning her name - the answer was provided by Dr Sarah Blick, Dept of Art History, Kenyon college

A 14th c picture of the thing
http://www.ariadne.org/cc/MISC/edstomb.jpg

Florence B
France
Local time: 12:27
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in pair: 753

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Christopher Crockett: Yes, it's something more than just a tomb --"tomb shrine" is self-explanitory, while "foramina" is the correct technical term, which might be of some use to some readers.
29 mins

agree  Jean-Luc Dumont: je peux reposer en paix maintenant
40 mins
  -> :-))
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