scheidet sich vom F: 163–164° ab

10:56 Jul 25, 2019
German to English translations [PRO]
Science - Chemistry; Chem Sci/Eng
German term or phrase: scheidet sich vom F: 163–164° ab
This is talking about p-chlorophenyldithiobiuret precipitating when a filitrate is poured into a solution of water and hydrochloric acid. I can't work out what "F" stands for or what is going on with "vom" - I would assume that as the "F" is some kind of temperature, it should be "at" or "from" (starting at), but I would expect the preposition in that case to be "bei" or "ab". Any thoughts?
United Kingdom

Summary of answers provided
3 +1separates / deposits at the m.p. of 163–164 °C and beyond
D. I. Verrelli
3precipates from F: 163–164°
Johannes Gleim
Summary of reference entries provided
Marga Shaw
Properties of p-chlorophenyldithiobiuret
D. I. Verrelli

Discussion entries: 13



23 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
precipates from F: 163–164°

Ich denke, dass es sich darum handelt, jedenfalls führt die Suche bei Römpp nach „p-chlorophenyldithiobiuret" zu Bromchlorphenolblau

C19H10Br2Cl2O5S, Mr 581,06. Violettrosafarbiges Pulver, löslich in Alkohol, wenig löslich in Wasser.
Verwendung: Indikator zur pH-Bestimmung, Umschlagsbereich pH 3,0 (gelb) bis 4,6 (purpur).
E bromchlorophenol blue
(Vollständiger Zugriff auf Roempp Online nur mit Passwort möglich, kostenpflichtig)

Anm.: Physikalische Daten fehlen in diesem Eintrag. Auch Wikipedia verrät nicht viel mehr.

Name Bromchlorphenolblau
Andere Namen : 5′,5′′-Dibrom-3′,3′′-dichlorphenolsulfonphthalein
Schmelzpunkt: 230 °C (Zersetzung)
230 °C (Zersetzung)[1]

Bromophenol blue is a tracking dye for alkaline and neutral buffer systems
Formel: C₁₉H₁₀Br₂Cl₂O₅S
Molecular Weight: 581,06 g/mol
Siedepunkt: 603 °C (1013 hPa)
Schmelzpunkt: 250 - 251 °C
CAS-Nummer: 2553-71-1
EINECS: 219-861-0

Schmelzpunkt/Gefrierpunkt 273 °C bei 1013 hPa
Flammpunkt nicht anwendbar.
Verdampfungsgeschwindigkeit es liegen keine Daten vor.
Entzündbarkeit (fest, gasförmig). Keine Informationen verfügbar.

Unter finden sich weitere Links, in denen aber ebenfalls steht "keine Daten" oder "nicht anwendbar".

Um das genau zu klären, müsste man den Kunden fragen. B.a.w. würde ich "F" einfach stehen lassen.

Ich darf aber auch das eigene Suchergebnis noch anfügen:

Den Begriffen Schmelzpunkt (Smp) und Siedepunkt (Sdp) ist der Vorzug zu geben. Festpunkt (Fp oder F., eigentlich Fusionspunkt), und Kochpunkt (Kp) sind veraltete Nebenformen. Genau genommen sollte der Wortteil „-punkt“ durch „-temperatur“ ersetzt werden: Schmelztemperatur (Tm oder θm von engl. melting temperature) und Siedetemperatur (Tb oder θb von engl. boiling temperature) T bezieht sich auf Kelvin-Temperaturen, θ auf Celsius-Temperaturen.

Falls das stimmt, ist aber auffällig, dass "F: 163–164°" stark vom Schmelzpunkt 250 - 251 °C, bzw. 273 °C abweicht. Oder sind Festpunkt und Schmelzpunkt hier doch unterschiedliche Dinge?

Andere Möglichkeit: Es handelt sich nicht um Bromchlorphenolblau, sondern etwas anderes. Ist der deutsche Name bekannt?
163 °F wären übrigens 78 °C, passt also auch nicht.

Note added at 23 hrs (2019-07-26 10:53:56 GMT)


Precipation temp.: 163 – 164 °C

Note added at 1 day 8 hrs (2019-07-26 19:46:20 GMT)

Please read also "precipitates from F: 163–164°"
Sorry for the typing error!

Johannes Gleim
Local time: 03:38
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 54
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9 days   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
separates / deposits at the m.p. of 163–164 °C and beyond


I suspect the separation occurs in cooling. If so, then "beyond" could be replaced with "below".
Theoretically maybe it could happen by heating — in which case "above" would be correct — but "beyond" is a cautious choice to cover both options.

Other options:
"separates / deposits at and beyond the m.p.: 163–164 °C"
"separates / deposits beginning at the m.p.: 163–164 °C"

I am inclined to avoid "from", which could conjure up other (nonsensical) ideas.

Note added at 9 days (2019-08-04 02:15:47 GMT)

The term "precipitation" (from dissolved state to solid state) wouldn't apply to solidification/freezing (from liquid state to solid state).

D. I. Verrelli
Local time: 13:38
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Kim Metzger
12 hrs
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Reference comments

24 mins peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: @Kj1308

Reference information:
Could we please have the whole sentence in German regarding your query. Speculation that it could be this or something else in Englisch is not good enough.

Marga Shaw
United Kingdom
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: German
PRO pts in category: 123

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  D. I. Verrelli
8 days
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9 days
Reference: Properties of p-chlorophenyldithiobiuret

Reference information:
Searching for properties of p-chlorophenyldithiobiuret 163

I found
"It was separated by filtration (yield, 2·3 g.) and crystallised from dilute alcohol, whereby p-chlorophenyldithiobiuret separated in clusters of fine needles, m.p. 163–4°. (Found: N, 17·23; 17·41. C₈H₈N₃S₂Cl requires N, 17·1 per cent.)"

"m.p." is, of course, the melting point.

It is unfortunate that the above reference didn't distinguish the temperature scale as Celsius or Fahrenheit.

However, the same reference gives the b.p. of "isopropylisothiocyanate" (2-isothiocyanatopropane) as "138°", which matches the "136.00 to 138.00 °C" (at atmospheric pressure) given in an independent source ...
... which indicates that the melting point of p-chlorophenyldithiobiuret is 163–164 °C.

From this one could not be 100% sure that the source text is referring to the melting point (in degrees Celsius), but it's certainly a remarkable coincidence for the value of the property to align so perfectly.

Moreover, it agrees with the Asker's subsequent argument:
"F" stands for "Festpunkt/Fusionspunkt" [which] is an archaic way of expressing "Schmelzpunkt"

D. I. Verrelli
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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