Knicklinie

English translation: nominal edge of (the) landing

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:Knicklinie
English translation:nominal edge of (the) landing
Entered by: arne_marko

00:36 Sep 10, 2019
German to English translations [PRO]
Tech/Engineering - Construction / Civil Engineering / Building shell construction
German term or phrase: Knicklinie
"Im Rahmen der Prüfung der Schnittdarstellungen wurde festgestellt, dass die Darstellung der Treppengeländer ebenso fehlt wie die Ausbildung der Rohbaugeometrie der Treppen (Auflager, Knicklinie, Steigungsverhältnis etc.)."
Explanation found at http://www.prucker-treppen.de/infomaterial/treppen-abc.html:
Die Knicklinie bezeichnet im weitesten Sinn den Beginn und das Ende des Treppenpodests. Dieser liegt an jenen Punkten, an denen der Übergang von der durchgängigen Steigung in die vertikale Plattform übergeht, sowie an jenen, an denen aus der vertikalen Plattform die Steigung wieder aufgenommen wird.
arne_marko
Local time: 06:04
nominal edge of (the) landing
Explanation:
Based on the reference post, I'm fairly sure this is what the "Knicklinie" refers to. What I cannot find is a one-word synonym used for the same purpose in English.

Actually, I am coming to think that perhaps in English there is no synonym (that is actually used in the industry).
For instance:
"The rise is a fixed dimension from finished floor level to finished floor level, form this you know you will need one less going or tread as the landing is in effect a going." https://knostairs.com/draw-visual-index/stair-drawing-check-...

German convention:

LLLLLLLKSSS
           SSS
              SSS
                 SSS

where L = landing, S = step/tread/going, K = Knicklinie.

English-speaking convention (for some configurations?):

LLLLLLLLLLL
           SSS
              SSS
                 SSS

Another idea was "edge of the landing proper" / "edge of the true landing", which could work well if there is a distinct stair tread adjacent to the landing and at the same elevation — but not in the second configuration identified in the Reference post, nor in situations where there is no physical difference or break between the uppermost (effective) 'going' and the landing.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 3 hrs (2019-09-12 04:35:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Maybe alternatively, as a descriptive phrase, "nominal boundary/junction between the landing(s) and the flight(s)".
https://present5.com/presentation/179228532_324512029/image-... (Too bad the resolution of this image is so low.)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 4 hrs (2019-09-12 04:45:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

From the same document cited in my Reference post, the "Knicklinie" is shown as occurring where an imaginary line through the leading edge of the treads on the descending flight meets the corresponding imaginary line through the leading edge of the treads on the ascending flight. [Similarly the two lines running respectively along the bottoms of the ascending and descending flights intersect at the "Knicklinie".]
Thus another way to describe the "Knicklinie" could be "the vertical line/plane passing through the intersection of the pitch lines of the ascending and descending flights".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stairs#Measurements & http://www.stairplan.com/terminology.htm
But obviously this is becoming very wordy.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 4 hrs (2019-09-12 05:04:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I have another idea for some jargon to use for "Knicklinie".

I found a better copy of the image from https://present5.com/presentation/179228532_324512029/image-... , which was credited to page 528 of Chudley (2001), namely slide 5 of https://www.slideshare.net/abhishekmewada54/rcc-stairs
Similar to my reference post, the sketch describes cases based upon the soffits of the two flights that meet at the given landing, namely whether they are "in line" or "out of line". (The "Knicklinie" concept seems to assume that they will be in line.)
A soffit, BTW, is defined as the underside of an architectural element — such as stairs/flights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soffit#Soffits_in_homes_and_of...
Alternatively: "Soffit – The visible sloping under-surface between stair strings." https://www.pearstairs.co.uk/staircase-glossary (This is quite a nice glossary, BTW.)

Hence we could try to construct an equivalent phrase for "Knicklinie" as "point/line/plane of intersection of the soffits", "line/plane of soffit intersections", "line/plane passing through the soffit intersections", or similar.

Here's an example of "point of intersection of the soffits" being used in relation to flights of stairs: http://weccivilians.weebly.com/uploads/2/4/6/2/24623713/stai...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 4 hrs (2019-09-12 05:14:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In fact, one can find a copy of Chudley & Greeno (2001) online too:
"The point of intersection of the soffits to the flights with the landing soffits can be detailed in one of two ways: [...]."
This is much more precise, albeit wordier.
https://epdf.pub/queue/advanced-construction-technology-4th-... (page 538)
Selected response from:

D. I. Verrelli
Australia
Local time: 20:04
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
2 +1nominal edge of (the) landing
D. I. Verrelli
3walking line on landings / landing size
Barbara Schmidt
4 -1line of deflection
Chris Pr
5 -2crease line
Cillie Swart
3break line
David Hollywood
4 -1knickline
Kartik Isaac
Summary of reference entries provided
German definition of "Knicklinie" with illustrations
D. I. Verrelli

Discussion entries: 5





  

Answers


13 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
knickline


Explanation:
Looks like "knickline" is the term to use here.
Alternatively "bend lines" can be used to determine the location and shape for the bend geometry in CAD. Hope this helps :)


    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/knickline
    Reference: http://support.ptc.com/help/creo/creo_pma/usascii/index.html...
Kartik Isaac
Switzerland
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  D. I. Verrelli: In relation to stairs "knickline" seems to show up predominantly from German sources: maybe a 'false friend'. Your "bend line" reference seems to relate to rounded bends, rather than sharp 'corners' or edges.
1 day 12 hrs

disagree  Barbara Schmidt: I don't think this makes sense in this context.
2 days 11 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
break line


Explanation:
The display of stairs in floor plan view can be customized to include a stair break line, newels, balusters, railing, tread overhang, and stringers.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2019-09-10 02:08:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think this is the term in an architectural context such as yours

Stair tread depth should be 10 to 12" (250-300 mm) with 10" (254 mm) minimum. .... Notice also that the stairs are drawn broken with a long break line

One is the long break line and the other is the short break line. The long break line is the type of line that is associated with the architectural drafting. To terminate a feature on the drawing, after the clear definition of the feature extend, break lines can be used.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2019-09-10 02:10:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I understand it to refer to the line that separates a stair segment from a landing before the next stair segment continues

David Hollywood
Local time: 06:04
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 264

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Johannes Gleim: Sounds comprehensible
14 hrs
  -> thanks Johannes and I think it's ok here

disagree  D. I. Verrelli: AFAI can tell, "break line" relates to certain jagged lines indicating that the object of interest continues beyond what has been sketched. http://www.tpub.com/engbas/3.htm53.gif Purely about the sketch (like the scaling), not a physical feature.
1 day 11 hrs

neutral  Barbara Schmidt: ok
2 days 10 hrs
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8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): -2
crease line


Explanation:
the line that can be seen as a result of the bend, even when it is in straight mode


    Reference: http://https://translate.google.co.za/?hl=af#view=home&op=tr...
    Reference: http://https://www.linguee.com/english-german/search?source=...
Cillie Swart
South Africa
Local time: 11:04
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Kim Metzger: We're talking about geometry here.
4 hrs

disagree  Barbara Schmidt: I don't think this makes sense in this context.
2 days 2 hrs
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
line of deflection


Explanation:
As listed here:

https://issuu.com/detail-magazine/docs/bk_detail_d_4_2014/21

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2019-09-10 07:30:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The German text begins top of page 21: Als gestalterisches Ziel...
And the English at bottom of page 22: As a design goal....

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2019-09-10 11:16:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The title of the work linked to is:

"The Planning and Construction of Staircases"


    https://issuu.com/detail-magazine/docs/bk_detail_d_4_2014/21
Chris Pr
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:04
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Johannes Gleim: Sounds strange as deflection ist translated by "Durchbiegung" oder "Biegung".
9 hrs
  -> Just quoting from a source *directly related* to staircase design :)

neutral  D. I. Verrelli: Yes, your reference is relevant to the topic. "Line of deflection" is stated to exist "on the underside of the landing". It seems to not be a common expression in English though: https://www.bing.com/search?q=+"line of deflection" stairs
1 day 6 hrs
  -> Doubtful the OP would be asking if this was such a common Bing term, n'est pas?

disagree  Barbara Schmidt: I don't think this makes sense in this context.
2 days 4 hrs
  -> lol, best laugh I've had all week - disagree with all then make the weakest entry of all! :)
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1 day 14 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): +1
nominal edge of (the) landing


Explanation:
Based on the reference post, I'm fairly sure this is what the "Knicklinie" refers to. What I cannot find is a one-word synonym used for the same purpose in English.

Actually, I am coming to think that perhaps in English there is no synonym (that is actually used in the industry).
For instance:
"The rise is a fixed dimension from finished floor level to finished floor level, form this you know you will need one less going or tread as the landing is in effect a going." https://knostairs.com/draw-visual-index/stair-drawing-check-...

German convention:

LLLLLLLKSSS
           SSS
              SSS
                 SSS

where L = landing, S = step/tread/going, K = Knicklinie.

English-speaking convention (for some configurations?):

LLLLLLLLLLL
           SSS
              SSS
                 SSS

Another idea was "edge of the landing proper" / "edge of the true landing", which could work well if there is a distinct stair tread adjacent to the landing and at the same elevation — but not in the second configuration identified in the Reference post, nor in situations where there is no physical difference or break between the uppermost (effective) 'going' and the landing.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 3 hrs (2019-09-12 04:35:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Maybe alternatively, as a descriptive phrase, "nominal boundary/junction between the landing(s) and the flight(s)".
https://present5.com/presentation/179228532_324512029/image-... (Too bad the resolution of this image is so low.)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 4 hrs (2019-09-12 04:45:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

From the same document cited in my Reference post, the "Knicklinie" is shown as occurring where an imaginary line through the leading edge of the treads on the descending flight meets the corresponding imaginary line through the leading edge of the treads on the ascending flight. [Similarly the two lines running respectively along the bottoms of the ascending and descending flights intersect at the "Knicklinie".]
Thus another way to describe the "Knicklinie" could be "the vertical line/plane passing through the intersection of the pitch lines of the ascending and descending flights".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stairs#Measurements & http://www.stairplan.com/terminology.htm
But obviously this is becoming very wordy.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 4 hrs (2019-09-12 05:04:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I have another idea for some jargon to use for "Knicklinie".

I found a better copy of the image from https://present5.com/presentation/179228532_324512029/image-... , which was credited to page 528 of Chudley (2001), namely slide 5 of https://www.slideshare.net/abhishekmewada54/rcc-stairs
Similar to my reference post, the sketch describes cases based upon the soffits of the two flights that meet at the given landing, namely whether they are "in line" or "out of line". (The "Knicklinie" concept seems to assume that they will be in line.)
A soffit, BTW, is defined as the underside of an architectural element — such as stairs/flights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soffit#Soffits_in_homes_and_of...
Alternatively: "Soffit – The visible sloping under-surface between stair strings." https://www.pearstairs.co.uk/staircase-glossary (This is quite a nice glossary, BTW.)

Hence we could try to construct an equivalent phrase for "Knicklinie" as "point/line/plane of intersection of the soffits", "line/plane of soffit intersections", "line/plane passing through the soffit intersections", or similar.

Here's an example of "point of intersection of the soffits" being used in relation to flights of stairs: http://weccivilians.weebly.com/uploads/2/4/6/2/24623713/stai...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 4 hrs (2019-09-12 05:14:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In fact, one can find a copy of Chudley & Greeno (2001) online too:
"The point of intersection of the soffits to the flights with the landing soffits can be detailed in one of two ways: [...]."
This is much more precise, albeit wordier.
https://epdf.pub/queue/advanced-construction-technology-4th-... (page 538)

D. I. Verrelli
Australia
Local time: 20:04
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Barbara Schmidt: I'm not entirely sure, but this could very well be correct
20 hrs
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2 days 8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
walking line on landings / landing size


Explanation:
this is what I think is meant here

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Note added at 3 Tage 11 Stunden (2019-09-13 12:30:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Definition:
Die Knicklinie bezeichnet im weitesten Sinn den Beginn und das Ende des Treppenpodests. Dieser liegt an jenen Punkten, an denen der Übergang von der durchgängigen Steigung in die vertikale Plattform übergeht, sowie an jenen, an denen aus der vertikalen Plattform die Steigung wieder aufgenommen wird.

Barbara Schmidt
Germany
Local time: 11:04
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 20
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Reference comments


1 day 13 hrs peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: German definition of "Knicklinie" with illustrations

Reference information:
A good explanation at
https://www.scribd.com/doc/129377836/treppe-pdf
as it contains schematic illustrations for two different configurations of the steps.

In both cases the 'line' (drawn vertically on the illustrations, and so maybe interpretable as a plane) defines the edge of the landing, under a convention that the uppermost step may actually be at exactly the same elevation as the landing and contiguous with the landing.
Therefore what the lay person might consider the edge of the landing would actually be the edge of the uppermost step, whereas the edge defined by the "Knicklinie" would be set back in from that edge by a certain distance (the width of either one step or half a step, according to the two illustrated configurations).

This "Knicklinie" is not merely an artefact of a drawing — such as a title bar.
Although there might not be any physical line or edge present on the stairs where the "Knicklinie" occurs, it is still a physical feature inasmuch as one could precisely determine the location of the "Knicklinie" by examination of the physical staircase, without ever referring to a sketch.

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Note added at 1 day 14 hrs (2019-09-11 14:46:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In the foregoing description I was focused on the top surface of the landing. Turning our attention to the underside of the landing, the "Knicklinie" matches the edge of the horizontal underside of the landing in both configurations sketched.

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Note added at 2 days 3 hrs (2019-09-12 04:24:12 GMT)
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"Fall 1:
Liegt die Vorderkante der Stufe des aufsteigenden Laufs über der Knicklinie, so liegt die Oberkante des Handlaufes 90 cm (Geländerhöhe) + 1 Stufenhöhe hoch.
Das Geländer ist damit am Treppenauge sehr hoch, aber die Stärke der Podestplatte ist aus dem gleichen Grunde am geringsten.
Fall 2:
Liegen die Vorderkanten der beiden Läufe übereinander, so beträgt die Geländerhöhe in der Knicklinie + 1/2 Stufenhöhe.
Die Podestplatte ist um 1/2 Stufenhöhe stärker als bei Fall 1."

D. I. Verrelli
Australia
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Barbara Schmidt: agree - I'm not entirely sure, but this could very well be correct.
1 day 22 hrs
  -> I think the cited reference appears quite reliable. Then it is just a matter of how to read/interpret it.
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