sprachgemeinschaftlich-rational

English translation: etymologically rooted

16:29 Apr 23, 2013
German to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - Linguistics
German term or phrase: sprachgemeinschaftlich-rational
and individuell-emotional.

This is not my field at all and I am struggling with some of these concepts.

Here is the sentence with the previous paragraph for context:

"Der Grund dafür liegt darin, dass Eigennamen, die ja anders als die Wörter des Normalwortschatzes (Gattungsnamen = Appellativa) eigentlich nichts „bedeuten“, sondern nur auf den Namenträger „verweisen“ (referieren), doch eine bestimmte Art von Bedeutung annehmen können. Anders nämlich als die Wörter des Normalwortschatzes haben die Eigennamen zwar keine „denotative“ (d. h. vom jeweiligen Sprecher und vom situativen Kontext unabhängige) Bedeutung im eigentlichen Sinne, doch können sie wie die Wörter des Normalwortschatzes eine
„konnotative“ (d. h. vom jeweiligen Sprecher assoziierbare und vom situativen Kontext abhängige) Bedeutung sehr wohl aufweisen.

Nach Hilgemann (1978, 385) setzt sich die ,Bedeutung‘ eines Eigennamens aus identifikatorischen, sprachgemeinschaftlich-rationalen und individuell-emotionalen Merkmalen zusammen."

This is my attempt:

"According to Hilgemann (1978:385), a proper name's 'meaning' is composed of traits that are identificatory, rational to the language community and emotional to the individual."

However, I am very much out of my comfort zone with this topic.

Thanks.
Daniel Gray
Germany
Local time: 06:25
English translation:etymologically rooted
Explanation:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=etymologi...

or
rooted in etymology
peculiar to the language community


rational (DE): for reasons of (EN)

individuell-emotional:
arousing emotions on an individual level, i.e. different connotations for different people

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 17:39:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Looking at your previous Q, this does seem to be about the rights of language minorities. Consequently, my alternative suggestion (peculiar to the language community) might be more pertinent.

community-specific
rooted in the language spoken
etc

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 17:42:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

... but nothing to do with the English meaning of 'rational' = 'clarity of thought processes'.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 17:54:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In other words, I don't understand how a "rational association with a language community" might differ from an irrational one in this context.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 18:15:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

language community or linguistic community?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_language_community

proz.com is a linguistically gifted community, a community of linguists, a linguistic community.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs (2013-04-24 13:15:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Michael has invited me to expand on my comment above.

1) ‘rational’ is not only a false cognate here; it is performing a filler role along the same lines as ‘-technisch’ in the following examples:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/insurance/326011...
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/tech_engineering...
The least sensible option is to blindly copy it across into the translation and expect it to make any sense to an English reader.

2) “According to Hilgemann, the ‘meaning’ of a name consists of elements that (a) identify the person or place, (b) are peculiar to the language community in which it is used and (c) call forth individual emotional responses.”
It is irrelevant what associations (rational or irrational) the name might arouse in members of other language communities (plural).

3) ‘Language’ and ‘linguistic’ are not freely interchangeable in conjunction with ‘community’.

It would have been helpful if the two voters so far had explained why they found the other version suitable for this context. Their ‘clicks’ have ensured that it will go through on the nod 14 days from now unless something else happens in the meantime.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2013-04-24 23:15:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Strange. Every time I post an addendum, someone clicks on 'rational associations with linguistic communities', sometimes with an 'ooh lala', sometimes with a smiley. At this rate, I expect it will be on +4 by tomorrow.
Selected response from:

Lancashireman
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:25
Grading comment
Thanks Andrew. I went for 'peculiar to the language community' in the end. You make a good argument as to why 'rational' should not be translated as 'rational'.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +3rational associations with linguistic communities
Michael Martin, MA
3etymologically rooted
Lancashireman


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


56 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
etymologically rooted


Explanation:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=etymologi...

or
rooted in etymology
peculiar to the language community


rational (DE): for reasons of (EN)

individuell-emotional:
arousing emotions on an individual level, i.e. different connotations for different people

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 17:39:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Looking at your previous Q, this does seem to be about the rights of language minorities. Consequently, my alternative suggestion (peculiar to the language community) might be more pertinent.

community-specific
rooted in the language spoken
etc

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 17:42:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

... but nothing to do with the English meaning of 'rational' = 'clarity of thought processes'.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 17:54:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In other words, I don't understand how a "rational association with a language community" might differ from an irrational one in this context.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 18:15:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

language community or linguistic community?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_language_community

proz.com is a linguistically gifted community, a community of linguists, a linguistic community.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs (2013-04-24 13:15:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Michael has invited me to expand on my comment above.

1) ‘rational’ is not only a false cognate here; it is performing a filler role along the same lines as ‘-technisch’ in the following examples:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/insurance/326011...
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/tech_engineering...
The least sensible option is to blindly copy it across into the translation and expect it to make any sense to an English reader.

2) “According to Hilgemann, the ‘meaning’ of a name consists of elements that (a) identify the person or place, (b) are peculiar to the language community in which it is used and (c) call forth individual emotional responses.”
It is irrelevant what associations (rational or irrational) the name might arouse in members of other language communities (plural).

3) ‘Language’ and ‘linguistic’ are not freely interchangeable in conjunction with ‘community’.

It would have been helpful if the two voters so far had explained why they found the other version suitable for this context. Their ‘clicks’ have ensured that it will go through on the nod 14 days from now unless something else happens in the meantime.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2013-04-24 23:15:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Strange. Every time I post an addendum, someone clicks on 'rational associations with linguistic communities', sometimes with an 'ooh lala', sometimes with a smiley. At this rate, I expect it will be on +4 by tomorrow.

Lancashireman
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:25
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 32
Grading comment
Thanks Andrew. I went for 'peculiar to the language community' in the end. You make a good argument as to why 'rational' should not be translated as 'rational'.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
rational associations with linguistic communities


Explanation:
Here's my working translation for the whole sentence:

"According to Hilgemann (1978, 385), the meaning of a proper name consists of identifying features, rational associations with linguistic communities and individual emotive meaning."



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 days (2013-04-30 04:22:55 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Example of how the term "rational associations" is commonly used (for the uninitiated): "For example, the rational associations with Caterpillar may be around heavy construction equipment; the emotional associations may be with toughness and ruggedness, and the sensory associations may be yellow and black."


Michael Martin, MA
United States
Local time: 00:25
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 16
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks Michael. I went for Andrew's suggestion in the end, as he made a good argument as to why it shouldn't be 'rational' in the TT.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Ingeborg Gowans (X)
7 mins
  -> Thanks, Ingeborg!

agree  Ramey Rieger: ooh lala!
1 hr
  -> Danke, Ramey!

neutral  Lancashireman: Why plural 'communities'? There are a couple of other reasons why I think this makes no sense (see below).
5 hrs
  -> I'm a little slow on the uptake. Can you explain those reasons to me again..?

agree  Thayenga: Singular. :)
21 hrs

agree  Horst Huber (X): My sense is, it would be "within" linguistic communities. And not restricted to one, intersections, overlaps occur.
1 day 8 hrs

disagree  Cilian O'Tuama: "meaning consists of meaning" doesn't make much sense either. // It's not about what everybody understands. It's more about maintaining standards.
6 days
  -> Makes at least as much sense as the rather strained attempt to discredit a straightforward concept which everybody understands except a select few.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)



Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs (or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.

KudoZ™ translation help

The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.


See also:

Your current localization setting

English

Select a language

Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search