KudoZ home » German to English » Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting

Die heilsgeschichtliche Bestimmung

English translation: The predestination of Mary

Advertisement

Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs
(or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.
GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:Die heilsgeschichtliche Bestimmung
English translation:The predestination of Mary
Entered by: Helen Shiner
Options:
- Contribute to this entry
- Include in personal glossary

18:54 Aug 20, 2010
German to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting / Art history
German term or phrase: Die heilsgeschichtliche Bestimmung
This appears as part of the title of a 17th-century painting: 'Die heilsgeschichtliche Bestimmung der Jungfrau Maria'. There is, of course, a standard iconography as far as the Virgin Mary is concerned. This painting is likely to have been an oil sketch for a work depicting the Virgin and her parents, so would not fall into the Annunciation category. On which other occasion was Mary's role determined? It must be a standard scene from the life of the Virgin, but I can't for the life of me (!) think how one should translate this. Has anyone come across this before - in relation to the Virgin or any other saints, please?

I do not have an image of this painting and I have searched quite widely on the internet for it.
Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:04
the predestination of Mary
Explanation:
This is a shot in the dark too, but this is the only concept I can think of that would make sense in the context of a picture of Mary with her parents (possible translations like "the redemptive mission of Mary" don't seem right here, and don't convey the sense of "being appointed" that is in "Bestimmung")


The Eternal Predestination of Our Lady
Saturday, 11 July 2009 00:43
This eternal predestination is the first thing to which the Holy Ghost would draw our attention. He does so by the opening words read in the Epistle of the Mass for the day of her Nativity: "Ab aeterno ordinata sum." (Prov 8:23)
So, it is true to say that this amiable Infant, who is called Mary, daughter of Joachim and Ann, has been predestined and chosen by God from all eternity, that in her and by her, He may perform most marvelous things suitable to His eternal designs.
http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/Articles/Classic_Mariologi...


As the predestination of Christ to the natural divine sonship is superior to His predestination to glory and precedes it, and as the predestination of Mary to the divine motherhood precedes (in signo priori) her predestination to glory, so also the predestination of St. Joseph to be Foster-father of the Incarnate Word precedes his predestination to glory and to grace.
http://www.catholictreasury.info/joseph.php

Selected response from:

Armorel Young
Local time: 20:04
Grading comment
Thank you so much, Armorel, this is exactly what the client has decided she wants. I still don't know what is depicted, and I imagine that another title might also be fitting, but I am grateful for your assistance either way.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Advertisement


Summary of answers provided
1 +2the predestination of Mary
Armorel Young
2Presentation of Mary
Michael Wetzel
Summary of reference entries provided
translation of this term
Johanna Timm, PhD
On a lighter notecasper

Discussion entries: 8





  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 1/5Answerer confidence 1/5 peer agreement (net): +2
the predestination of Mary


Explanation:
This is a shot in the dark too, but this is the only concept I can think of that would make sense in the context of a picture of Mary with her parents (possible translations like "the redemptive mission of Mary" don't seem right here, and don't convey the sense of "being appointed" that is in "Bestimmung")


The Eternal Predestination of Our Lady
Saturday, 11 July 2009 00:43
This eternal predestination is the first thing to which the Holy Ghost would draw our attention. He does so by the opening words read in the Epistle of the Mass for the day of her Nativity: "Ab aeterno ordinata sum." (Prov 8:23)
So, it is true to say that this amiable Infant, who is called Mary, daughter of Joachim and Ann, has been predestined and chosen by God from all eternity, that in her and by her, He may perform most marvelous things suitable to His eternal designs.
http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/Articles/Classic_Mariologi...


As the predestination of Christ to the natural divine sonship is superior to His predestination to glory and precedes it, and as the predestination of Mary to the divine motherhood precedes (in signo priori) her predestination to glory, so also the predestination of St. Joseph to be Foster-father of the Incarnate Word precedes his predestination to glory and to grace.
http://www.catholictreasury.info/joseph.php



Armorel Young
Local time: 20:04
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 48
Grading comment
Thank you so much, Armorel, this is exactly what the client has decided she wants. I still don't know what is depicted, and I imagine that another title might also be fitting, but I am grateful for your assistance either way.
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks, Armorel, this is a great help. I am still wondering what exactly is depicted - as this text says, it is a rather abstract notion: http://www.philipresheph.com/a424/gallery/concept/iconogr.htm


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Clive Phillips
2 hrs

agree  Stephen Reader: Sounds convincing & evokes plausible images of infant Mary with all manner of symbols of /allegories for her life to come, in the composition. (I realise I'm adding no light to the shot in the dk.) - Best to you and Helen /S
5 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

2 days20 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
Presentation of Mary


Explanation:
Since the question is still open and this answer hasn't been eliminated yet, I'll go ahead and add it here as an official answer. Here is my commentary from the discussion:

I'm a little late, but I'm interested in the answer. My suggestion seems to be an established tradition based on apocryphal material and a significant, though less established, scene in visual cycles on the life of Mary. The translation and information are from Wikipedia, but it looks fairly convincing. Without an image, anything is possible, but this scene includes Mary as a child together with her parents and a revelation of her role in salvation.


    Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_Mary
Michael Wetzel
Germany
Local time: 21:04
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)




Reference comments


1 hr
Reference: translation of this term

Reference information:
is discussed here:
http://euangelizomai.blogspot.com/2006/04/definition-of-salv...

Johanna Timm, PhD
Canada
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 71
Note to reference poster
Asker: Thanks, Johanna, yes, I've seen these clumsy attempts at translating this. I can't for the life of me though imagine that the EN equivalent is anything like this. I suspect we use something completely different. I do appreciate your help nonetheless.

Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

9 hrs
Reference: On a lighter note

Reference information:
Devil's Dictionary: foreordination

This looks like an easy word to define, but when I consider that pious and learned theologians have spent long lives in explaining it, and written libraries to explain their explanations; when I remember the nations have been divided and bloody battles caused by the difference between foreordination and predestination, and that millions of treasure have been expended in the effort to prove and disprove its compatibility with freedom of the will and the efficacy of prayer, praise, and a religious life, -- recalling these awful facts in the history of the word, I stand appalled before the mighty problem of its signification, abase my spiritual eyes, fearing to contemplate its portentous magnitude, reverently uncover and humbly refer it to His Eminence Cardinal Gibbons and His Grace Bishop Potter.
http://www.answers.com/foreordain

casper
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 7
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)




Return to KudoZ list


KudoZ™ translation help
The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.



See also:



Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search