KudoZ home » German to English » Art/Literary

Gewalt und Geschlecht

English translation: violence and gender

Advertisement

Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs
(or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.
GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:Gewalt und Geschlecht
English translation:violence and gender
Entered by: Textklick
Options:
- Contribute to this entry
- Include in personal glossary

19:36 Dec 16, 2003
German to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary
German term or phrase: Gewalt und Geschlecht
A client is hacked off because I used sex and force (neither in person, nor in that order ;-) I claim that gender is a purely grammatical business, although popular usage often overlooks that fact. The three versions are below. I'd welcome simple agrees/disagrees - please don't go to the trouble of offering alternatives because that's not where it's at.
Original: Während sich einerseits darüber Konsens herstellen läßt, dass es sich bei Krieg oder Folter um Gewalt handelt, so ist das bei Fragen der ökonomischen Macht, den Grenzlinien zwischen arm und reich oder auch den Grenzlinien, die die Geschlechterordnungen bestimmen bzw. quer zu ihnen liegen, in hohem Maße kontrovers.

My version: Whilst consensus can be reached on the one hand that force applies in the case of war and torture, a high degree of controversy occurs in the case of questions of economic force, the borderlines between rich and poor and also the borderlines that determine sexual order and those that cross these.

Reviewed: Whilst consensus can be reached on the one hand that war and torture are forms of violence. A high degree of controversy occurs in the case of questions of economic violence, the borderlines between rich and poor and also the borders that define gender order and those queering them.
Textklick
Local time: 10:45
violence and gender
Explanation:
I do prefer the reviewed version (violence/gender), although I probably wouldn't use the word "queering" (not that I find it indefensible, it just makes my neck hair stand on end).

Wikipedia on gender:
"Social scientists use gender to refer to a particular social identity, status, and cluster of roles, that are often (but not exclusively) determined on the basis of sex. See gender identity, gender role."

Selected response from:

ntext
United States
Local time: 04:45
Grading comment
My sincerest thanks to all of you for your various input and feedback on this.

On reflection, I think the festive cranberry sauce goes to to Norbert. The reason for this, is that he opened a (possibly) hide-bound person's eyes to the fact that gender could well be appropriate within in a social science context, which this was. I think I shall at least concede on that one.

As for force vs violence...The reason I opted for force was that "Gewalt" was very much both "Urbegriff/Leitmotif" of this piece, appearing in virtually every sentence. It appeared in the various meanings of violence, mental cruelty, war etc., and I suppose I opted for the easy solution. Reason is that maybe I got paranoid about German reviewers and inconsistency issues. Ever had that? ;-)

Thanks also to Michele for being forthright, despite naming no preferences. And no, apart from some unsuccessful attempts to demolish the wine stocks of All Souls Oxford in recent years, I have not "been at university" within the last ten years. But don't get me wrong! I do understand that going forward, it is key to optimize the mission-critical quality of our offerings by leveraging peer input....

Thanks to all, God bless, have a great Christmas and a happy, health and successful New Year ;-)
3 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Advertisement


Summary of answers provided
5 +2both need workLaurel Porter
4 +3neither good, but 'queering' is asinine
Maureen Holm, J.D., LL.M.
3 +3** NO ** (better: violence, gender)
Michele Johnson
4 +1"gender order" for preferencexxxCMJ_Trans
4 +1violence and genderntext
4Your version is better
Lori Dendy-Molz
4violence
William Stein
4Nothing wrong with it..
Gareth McMillan
2I prefer your version, here's what Webster says:
Jonathan MacKerron


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


1 min   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
violence


Explanation:
or "unlawful/undue force", but not just force by itself (sorry)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 mins (2003-12-16 19:39:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Gender is better than \"sexual\", which could just refer to sexual intercourse, but \"queering\" is a classic joke! You should really publish that one (a \"queer\" is slang for homosexual so it\'s really perfect in context!)

William Stein
Costa Rica
Local time: 04:45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 1734
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

14 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
violence and gender


Explanation:
I do prefer the reviewed version (violence/gender), although I probably wouldn't use the word "queering" (not that I find it indefensible, it just makes my neck hair stand on end).

Wikipedia on gender:
"Social scientists use gender to refer to a particular social identity, status, and cluster of roles, that are often (but not exclusively) determined on the basis of sex. See gender identity, gender role."




    Reference: http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_
    Reference: http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role
ntext
United States
Local time: 04:45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in pair: 2954
Grading comment
My sincerest thanks to all of you for your various input and feedback on this.

On reflection, I think the festive cranberry sauce goes to to Norbert. The reason for this, is that he opened a (possibly) hide-bound person's eyes to the fact that gender could well be appropriate within in a social science context, which this was. I think I shall at least concede on that one.

As for force vs violence...The reason I opted for force was that "Gewalt" was very much both "Urbegriff/Leitmotif" of this piece, appearing in virtually every sentence. It appeared in the various meanings of violence, mental cruelty, war etc., and I suppose I opted for the easy solution. Reason is that maybe I got paranoid about German reviewers and inconsistency issues. Ever had that? ;-)

Thanks also to Michele for being forthright, despite naming no preferences. And no, apart from some unsuccessful attempts to demolish the wine stocks of All Souls Oxford in recent years, I have not "been at university" within the last ten years. But don't get me wrong! I do understand that going forward, it is key to optimize the mission-critical quality of our offerings by leveraging peer input....

Thanks to all, God bless, have a great Christmas and a happy, health and successful New Year ;-)

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Gareth McMillan: Not just the neck hairs. (Sorry, couldn't resist it!)
1 hr

agree  Marshall Waddell: language being fungible, better to bow to popular understanding of terms.
4 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

22 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
I prefer your version, here's what Webster says:


Explanation:
"gender:
1 a archaic : KIND, SORT b : SEX *black divinities of the feminine gender Charles Dickens*
2 linguistics a : any of two or more subclasses within a grammatical class of a language (such as noun, pronoun, adjective, verb) that are partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics such as shape, social rank, manner of existence (as animate or inanimate), or sex (as masculine, feminine, or neuter) and that determine agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms *Latin has three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter* *French has two genders, masculine and feminine* b : membership of a word or a grammatical form in such a subclass *a Latin noun has gender, number, and case* *an English noun has, strictly speaking, no gender* c : an inflectional form showing membership in such a subclass *a Latin adjective agrees in gender with the noun it modifies"
while Dorland's Medical Dictionary says "the distinction between male and female, found in most species of animals and
plants, based on the type of gametes produced by the individual or the category into which the individual fits on the
basis of that criterion. Ova are produced by the female and spermatozoa by the male; the union of these distinctive
germ cells being the prerequisite for the production of a new individual in sexual reproduction."
So there are contradictions as what this word actually means!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 26 mins (2003-12-16 20:02:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The latest version of Websters (the above is the 3rd International version issued in the 60s) now has the order of definitions the other way around, i.e. the grammatical angle first and the sexual one second. This would further support your grammatical angle.

Jonathan MacKerron
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 5577

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Michele Johnson: Isn't this like arguing that we shouldn't use the word "gay" for homosexual, because the first Webster definition is "happy, merry"?
12 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

34 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Your version is better


Explanation:
For starters, the rewritten version is grammatically incorrect, leaving the "whilst" hanging.

Lori Dendy-Molz
Germany
Local time: 11:45
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in pair: 1453
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

44 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
neither good, but 'queering' is asinine


Explanation:
you said offer no alternative, so i don't

Maureen Holm, J.D., LL.M.
United States
Local time: 05:45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 986

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Michele Johnson: You're so disciplined. I couldn't hold back (with the alternatives). Both bad, queering hideous.
9 mins

agree  Terry Gilman
26 mins

neutral  Gareth McMillan: Don't you mean "assinine"? (USE)
1 hr
  -> surely you gesssssssst

agree  Laurel Porter: yours wasn't visible when i posted mine... cheers!
1 day 11 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

52 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
both need work


Explanation:
The reviewed version is definitely unacceptable (economic VIOLENCE? and that dangling "whilst"?); however, I'm afraid I feel compelled to say that the first version sounds rather translated and awkward too.

However, I think you were just looking for "Yes, your version is better". If that is the case, you do get one vote from me.

Laurel Porter
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 44

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Armorel Young
2 hrs

agree  Mario Marcolin
1 day 3 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Nothing wrong with it..


Explanation:
In fact, very good indeed, indignation justified.
Customer's obviously been reading too much William Burroughs (Heh,heh).
One wee point "those that cross these" could maybe be replaced with
"the crossing of these", otherwise fine.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 50 mins (2003-12-16 21:26:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oops, I just suggested an (wee) alternative, sorry, but at least I\'m not tripping over myself to rewrite it MY WAY.

Gareth McMillan
Local time: 11:45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 793
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

12 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
"gender order" for preference


Explanation:
I agree with others that neither sentence would get my vote in the absolute (matters of taste!) but that on the gender order issue, you have to stand corrected. I would take issue over the grammatical structure of the rival option and the term "queering" which these days only ever appears in phrases such as as "queering one's pitch".

".... and those defining or cutting across gender order" would be my shot other than rewriting the whole thing.

PS I would watch out for the word "determined".

xxxCMJ_Trans
Local time: 11:45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 2071

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Laurel Porter: Q: what exactly is gender "order"? Ladies first? Aren't we really talking about gender roles here?
1 day 30 mins
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

52 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
** NO ** (better: violence, gender)


Explanation:
You know, I think it's unfortunate you're not interested in alternatives; I say *****NO******, and will elaborate on this for my fellow colleagues.

** ökonomische Macht: **
Apparently I have a completely different opinion about "Macht." Here I'd definitely say power (economic power). We're not necessarily talking about violence here! (or even force.) Definitely about power IMO.

** es ... handelt sich ... um Gewalt **:
Here I would say violence. I mean, torture isn't really about just force, is it?

** Geschlechterordnung **: Here I'd definitely say gender order. Could you elaborate on the "grammatical business"? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just not sure where you're coming from.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs 59 mins (2003-12-17 08:35:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I really don\'t buy into the grammatical thing with gender. Anyone who has been at a university in the past 10 years or has ever browsed books at amazon knows that a reference to gender in such a context (e.g. gender politics, the gender divide, race/gender discrimination, war crimes) has nothing to do with nouns and linguistics!

I think it\'s splitting hairs to argue based on dictionary order. As I commented about Jonathan\'s answer, this is like pretending to be confused about what \"gay\" means in our modern society, just because the first definition in the dictionary is \"happy.\"

Michele Johnson
Germany
Local time: 11:45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 581

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Armorel Young: Macht means power - it's different from both violence and force
2 hrs

neutral  Jonathan MacKerron: see the definition of gender in any good dictionary, grammatical gender is often the first entry
11 hrs

agree  cologne
15 hrs

agree  Laurel Porter
1 day 11 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)




Return to KudoZ list


KudoZ™ translation help
The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.



See also:



Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search