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zur ungeteilten Hand

English translation: jointly

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:zur ungeteilten Hand
English translation:jointly
Entered by: Victor Dewsbery
Options:
- Contribute to this entry
- Include in personal glossary

07:52 Aug 6, 2004
German to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law: Contract(s)
German term or phrase: zur ungeteilten Hand
Occurs twice in an Austrian sales/purchase contract.

"Die Verkaeufer garantieren den Kaeufern gegenueber zur ungeteilten Hand, dass folgendes ... zutreffend ist."

and

"Rechte und Pflichten aus diesem Vertrag gehen auf die jeweiligen Rechtsnachfolger zur ungeteilten Hand."
transatgees
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:16
jointly
Explanation:
This was my spontaneous proposal. I looked for elaboration in Hamblock & Wessels, but it merely gives the same word.
Selected response from:

Victor Dewsbery
Germany
Local time: 09:16
Grading comment
Thank you.
Further research in a relative's Der Grosse Eichborn confirmed this translation.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
3 +2jointly
Victor Dewsbery
4jointlyMargaret Marks
4jointly and severally
Christian


  

Answers


7 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
jointly


Explanation:
This was my spontaneous proposal. I looked for elaboration in Hamblock & Wessels, but it merely gives the same word.

Victor Dewsbery
Germany
Local time: 09:16
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 187
Grading comment
Thank you.
Further research in a relative's Der Grosse Eichborn confirmed this translation.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Margaret Marks: Yes. The contrast in English is with 'in common'. Is this husband and wife owning a house? They own it jointly and are liability jointly and *not* severally.
1 hr

agree  xxxKirstyMacC: also borne out by Robert Herbst's dict., if an authority worth quoting...
3 hrs
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6 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
jointly and severally


Explanation:
This thread might help: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/316153

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 mins (2004-08-06 08:07:33 GMT)
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Here\'s another thread regarding \"jointly and severally\": http://www.proz.com/?sp=h&id=429949
HTH

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 56 mins (2004-08-06 10:49:29 GMT)
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Here\'s another interesting site (Austrian German / English):

(Austrian) German:
------------------
a) Verfügungsberechtigung
...
(2) Für Verpflichtungen aus dem Konto haften alle Inhaber zur ****ungeteilten Hand****.

English:
--------
a) Authority to operate
...
(2) The account holders shall be liable ****jointly and severally**** for obligations arising out of the account.


This bilingual document can be found here:
http://www.rzb.at/eBusiness/services/resources/lnz_resource_...

Hope this helps.

Christian
Local time: 09:16
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 26

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Wenjer Leuschel: Schön zu wissen.
11 mins
  -> Für mich als Deutscher hört sich "zur ungeteilten Hand" merkwürdig an. Ich glaube, dass man diese Bezeichnung nur in Österreich verwendet. Ich kann mich aber auch irren.

disagree  Margaret Marks: Joint and several *liability* is something else - gesamtschuldnerisch. This is gesamte Hand: look up German Gesamthandgemeinschaft as opp. to Bruchteilsgemeinschaft.
1 hr
  -> I think "gesamtschuldnerisch" is the German equivalent of the Austrian term "zur ungeteilten Hand", so I do think it's "jointly AND severally".
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
jointly


Explanation:
Victor has it right, but I want to add something (don't give me any points!)

The Russwurm Austrian legal dictionary says Gesamthandschuldverhältnis, Schuldverhältnis, bei dem mehrere Schuldner eine Leistung *nur gemeinsam* schuldbefreiend erbringen können (z.B. Musik-Duo), oder wenn mehreren Personen eine unteilbare Leistung geschuldet wir (Gesamthandgläubigerschaft).
So despite the earlier entry, the "severally" has no place here.

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Note added at 4 hrs 20 mins (2004-08-06 12:13:39 GMT)
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Christian: The Austrians have Gesamtschuldverhältnis too. Russwurm: \"Schuldverhältnis, bei dem bei Schuldnermehrheit jeder Schuldner für die gesamte Schuld haftet (Solidarschuld), bei Gläubigermehrheit jeder Gläbiger die gesamte Leistung fordern kann.\"

By definition, Gesamthandschuldverhältnis in Germany is the same am zur ungeteilten Hand in Austria.

Margaret Marks
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:16
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 154

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Christian: The question is whether "Gesamthandschuldverhältnis" is the exact synonym of "ungeteilte Hand". I'm not too sure about it.
18 mins
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