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Schicksalssinfonie (Beethovens Fünfte)

English translation: 5th Symphony (sometimes known as the \"Victory Symphony\"

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:Schicksalssinfonie (Beethovens Fünfte)
English translation:5th Symphony (sometimes known as the \"Victory Symphony\"
Entered by: Klaus Urban
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07:45 Feb 17, 2018
German to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Music / Sinfonien
German term or phrase: Schicksalssinfonie (Beethovens Fünfte)
Nach meinen Recherchen heißt sie im Englischen "Victory Symphony".
Bei You Tube wird auch eine "Siegessinfonie" angeboten, damit ist aber
"Wellington's Victory, or, the Battle of Vitoria (Wellingtons Sieg oder die Schlacht bei Vittoria)" gemeint.

Ist "Schicksalssinfonie" wirklich mit "Victory Symphony" zu "übersetzen"?
Klaus Urban
Local time: 12:44
5th Symphony (sometimes known as the "Victory Symphony"
Explanation:
This question made me curious, so I did a quick query of my many classical musician friends, both American and British, on Facebook. The results: almost no one had ever heard of these or any other nicknames for Beethoven's 5th. The one exception was an older Englishman who wrote "For us Brits, it's the "Victory Symphony", since WWII, because of the opening, "bam bam bam baaaaaem", morse code for the letter V. Which was Churchills famous two-fingered sign for victory...". When I asked if this might be a generational thing, he answered "Absolutely."

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Note added at 5 hrs (2018-02-17 13:16:33 GMT)
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Another response, this time from a professional cellist and educator: "It was often referred to as the “Fate” symphony in late 19th / early 20th century music appreciation texts aimed at educating the unwashed masses, and this trope that has shown up occasionally in similar contexts ever since."


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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-02-17 19:06:31 GMT)
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I have heard back from more than 25 professional classical musicians so far, all university trained, all working for decades in classical music. "Fate Symphony" is most definitely not recognized by anyone, even the British respondents among them.

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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-02-17 19:07:28 GMT)
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Correction: "Symphony of Fate", or "Destiny Symphony": unheard of.
Selected response from:

Kristina Cosumano
Germany
Local time: 12:44
Grading comment
Thank you!

4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +3Symphony of Fate
Stephen Sadie
4 +35th Symphony (sometimes known as the "Victory Symphony"
Kristina Cosumano
3Destiny Symphony (Beethoven's Fifth)
freekfluweel
Summary of reference entries provided
fwiw, hth
writeaway

Discussion entries: 9





  

Answers


26 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +3
Symphony of Fate


Explanation:
It is well-known and I am certain

Stephen Sadie
Germany
Local time: 12:44
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 18
Notes to answerer
Asker: Danke!


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  writeaway: or just Fate. Symphony No. 5 in C minor ('Fate') Op. 67: Allegro con brio Boston Symphony Orchestra/Erich ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rghJEWAUqoE /well you have it personally from a respected, world class authority
55 mins
  -> If we refer to the standard classical reference GROVE, it is clearly "Fate" and not "Victory". I have the 20 volumes in my book cupboard

agree  Katarina Peters
6 hrs
  -> Danke Katarina

agree  Rachel Fell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWAzuFI_hqM https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_"Fate"_(Bee...
5 days
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
Destiny Symphony (Beethoven's Fifth)


Explanation:
https://www.google.nl/search?q=destiny symphony&oq=destiny s...



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Note added at 1 uur (2018-02-17 09:43:54 GMT)
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http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/symphony5.html

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Note added at 2 uren (2018-02-17 09:46:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The first record I bought at age 12 was Beethoven's Fifth with the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Von Karajan, the first stereo-recording for Deutsche Grammophon!

freekfluweel
Netherlands
Local time: 12:44
Native speaker of: Native in DutchDutch
PRO pts in category: 4
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you!


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Stephen Sadie: I love the Karajan recording, however it is only very rarely referred to as the Destiny Symphony
5 hrs
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4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
5th Symphony (sometimes known as the "Victory Symphony"


Explanation:
This question made me curious, so I did a quick query of my many classical musician friends, both American and British, on Facebook. The results: almost no one had ever heard of these or any other nicknames for Beethoven's 5th. The one exception was an older Englishman who wrote "For us Brits, it's the "Victory Symphony", since WWII, because of the opening, "bam bam bam baaaaaem", morse code for the letter V. Which was Churchills famous two-fingered sign for victory...". When I asked if this might be a generational thing, he answered "Absolutely."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2018-02-17 13:16:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another response, this time from a professional cellist and educator: "It was often referred to as the “Fate” symphony in late 19th / early 20th century music appreciation texts aimed at educating the unwashed masses, and this trope that has shown up occasionally in similar contexts ever since."


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2018-02-17 19:06:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I have heard back from more than 25 professional classical musicians so far, all university trained, all working for decades in classical music. "Fate Symphony" is most definitely not recognized by anyone, even the British respondents among them.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2018-02-17 19:07:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Correction: "Symphony of Fate", or "Destiny Symphony": unheard of.

Kristina Cosumano
Germany
Local time: 12:44
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8
Grading comment
Thank you!
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you, Kristina!


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Thomas Pfann: Bonuspunkte fürs Eingehen auf Klaus Urbans Frage nach dem Begriff „Victory Symphony“. ;-)
43 mins
  -> Thank you!

agree  Charles Davis: I agree with those you have consulted. No nickname is used for this symphony nowadays. "Victory Symphony" is long out of date and I'm not sure it's even worth mentioning.
1 day 6 hrs
  -> You are probably right about that, but it still makes good material for CD booklet notes and the like.

agree  Björn Vrooman: It may be OK for CD booklets, but I don't think you're supposed to sound like you're a bit late to the party (the classical music one, that is).//Considering how many WWII movies Hollywood churns out every other year, I'm afraid I have to agree with you.
2 days 20 mins
  -> Thank you. I mean as a bit of trivia to fill space. What's 70 years, anyway, when the symphony itself is far older?
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Reference comments


2 hrs peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: fwiw, hth

Reference information:
What are the names of Beethoven's symphonies?
Answer Wiki

No. 3 - Eroica
No. 5 - The Fate
No. 6 - Pastoral
No. 7 - Apotheosis of Dance
No. 8 - The Little Symphony
No. 9 - The Choral
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-names-of-Beethovens-symph...

Ludwig van Beethoven - G. Henle Verlag
www.henleusa.com/us/detail/index.html?Title=Symphony no. 5 ...
Beethoven is presumed to have completed his 5th Symphony in early 1808; today, it is one of the most famous works of classical music of all. Its nickname “Fate Symphony” was given to it posthumously by Beethoven's biographer Anton Schindler; a title which no longer plays a role in modern-day Beethoven scholarship.


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Note added at 4 hrs (2018-02-17 11:54:13 GMT)
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Pato Mátteri, Orchestra Conductor
Answered Jan 13, 2011
Only Symphonies Nos. 3 (in E-flat Major, Op. 55), 6 (F Major, Op. 68) and 9 (in D minor, Op. 125) have names that were given by the composer. Those are the "Eroica" (3rd Symphony), the "Pastorale" (6th Symphony) and the "Choral" Symphony, the 9th.
The "Apotheosis of Dance" name was given by Richard Wagner when talking about Beethoven's 7th Symphony, because of its rhythmic qualities.
"The Little Symphony" was an affectionate name Beethoven gave to his 8th Symphony ("my little symphony in F") when comparing it to his 6th, since both symphonies were written in the key of F Major (and are the only two that share a key).
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-names-of-Beethovens-symph...

writeaway
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 24

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
neutral  freekfluweel: The Eighth is called "Scherzo"...
24 mins
  -> "The Little Symphony" was an affectionate name Beethoven gave to his 8th Symphony ("my little symphony in F") when comparing it to his 6th, since both symphonies were written in the key of F Major (and are the only two that share a key). cf quora URL abov
agree  Stephen Sadie: with writeaway
4 hrs
neutral  Charles Davis: The key quotation here is "a title which no longer plays a role in modern-day Beethoven scholarship". Nor, for that matter, in concert programmes or writing for a popular audience. // I agree
1 day 8 hrs
  -> the actual key thing is that there is no official nickname for this symphony.
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