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Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte

English translation: now clearly drunkenness and time (untime)

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte
English translation:now clearly drunkenness and time (untime)
Entered by: British Diana
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00:15 Dec 6, 2010
German to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature / Musil, Die Amsel
German term or phrase: Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte
Diese Zeile entstammt einer Kurzgeschichte von Musil, wo er von den Nachtgeräuschen in einem Berliner Hinterhof erzählt.

Meine Frage ist: Wie kann man das Wort "Späte" ins Englische übersetzen? Diese schöne Nominalisierung des Adjektivs "spät" haut ins Englische nicht ganz hin.

Ich wollte das Wort ursprünglich als "lateness" übersetzen, aber das ging nicht, weil es "Unpünktlichkeit" bedeutet. Hier meine anderen Versuche:

"At two o'clock the loud noises and laughter below are obviously drunkenness and things late."

ODER

"At two o'clock the loud noises and laughter below are distinctly drunkenness and the (late) hour."

Hat jemand einen Tipp bzw. eine Idee für mich?
Danke!
Jocelyn Polen
Local time: 12:36
At 2 a.m. .............are now clearly drunkenness and untime
Explanation:
Having come to this pretty late there was a lot to read through and I'm not sure I grasped all the innuendos.
So I am just trying for a Kunstwort as was suggested here:
" Johanna Timm, PhD: Späte is-as you noted above-a made-up word, ein Kunstwort (rooted, of course, in "spät"). Ideally, and in order to do justice to Robert Musil’s linguistic/poetic/literary genius, one would have to COIN a new English word (or modify an existing one)."

So here is my coining . Just as there is no word Späte, only spät there is no word untime, only untimely.

Or as opolt suggests "one strategy could be to "alienate" an existing expression in order to create a similar effect in English with different means"
So another possibility could be to say something enigmatic or puzzling such as "drunkenness and time"
Selected response from:

British Diana
Germany
Local time: 12:36
Grading comment
Thanks!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +1At two o'clock loud noise and laughter below give way to sounds of drunkenness and late hours
Helen Shiner
3 +2"(At two o'clock the loud noises and laughter below are obviously drunkenness and) the late hour"
Louise McNeill
4 +1At two a.m. noise and laughter from below clearly indicate drunkeness and the lateness of the hour
Pauline Alexiou
4At 2 am the noise and laughter are obvious results of drink and wee hours.
Ramey Rieger
3 +1a complete disregard for other people's right to sleepLancashireman
4At 2 a.m. .............are now clearly drunkenness and untime
British Diana
3At two o'clock after midnight, the loud noises and laughter below clearly tell me...casper
4 -1"At two o'clock in the morning din and laughter below have clearly turned into drink and lateness."
Roland Nienerza
Summary of reference entries provided
more context
Johanna Timm, PhD
Info
Kim Metzger
There is no reason to avoid "lateness" - because it does not only mean "being late".
Roland Nienerza

Discussion entries: 22





  

Answers


19 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
"Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte"
"(At two o'clock the loud noises and laughter below are obviously drunkenness and) the late hour"


Explanation:
I think it might be better than not to include the word late, as this is the word in the German. Hope this might be of help.

Louise McNeill
Local time: 11:36
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Horst Huber: I don't understand the fuss, "the late hour" is most certainly the answer.
7 days

agree  Ramey Rieger: with late hour.
7 days
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
"Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte"
"At two o'clock in the morning din and laughter below have clearly turned into drink and lateness."


Explanation:

Man würde natürlich "drunkenness" vorziehen, aber das passt eben schlecht schlecht zu"lateness".

Wie ich als Reference belegt habe, gibt es auch nicht den geringsten Grund, "lateness" nur als "Verspätung" zu verstehen.

Im übrigen ist ja für De natives klar, dass "Späte" eine "artistische ad-hoc-Bildung" ist, die in der realen Sprache praktisch gar nicht existiert. - Und diese Kunstform von "Späte" schliesst "Verspätung" auch ein. Musil hätte auch "Spätheit" schreiben können, aber das war ihm wohl noch nicht knapp genug.

Roland Nienerza
Local time: 12:36
Native speaker of: German
Notes to answerer
Asker: Hallo Roland! Danke für die ausführlichen Kommentare! Entschuldigung für die verspätete Antwort (wie passend!) - ich bin bei KudoZ ganz neu und habe die Benachrichtigung nicht gesehen. Ob ich "ist" ohne "geworden" als "turning into" übersetzt würde, bin ich mir nicht so sicher. Der Übergang von Abend zu Nacht und Nacht zu Tag ist eigentlich nicht im isolierten Satz, sondern in Zusammenhang mit den anderen Sätzen der Geschichte zu lesen. Das konnten Sie aber nicht wissen, da ich nur den einen Satz hier geschrieben habe. Es ist eher so, dass Musil Satz für Satz das Bild des Werdens beschreibt.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Cilian O'Tuama: so the din turns into drink, and laughter into lateness, or the other way round?// You could make a pretty penny if you could convert noise into drink.
15 days
  -> This way round. - The other way round only for those who read from right to left.

disagree  Lancashireman: This version does not make sense. Other absurdities posted on this page: “protocol of a night shift police patrol”; “"drinking people are noisy" (drinking people is noisy?); “For me this reads quite good” and “ebriety”.
20 days
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7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
"Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte"
At 2 am the noise and laughter are obvious results of drink and wee hours.


Explanation:
This could do it.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2010-12-06 08:22:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You could leave out the "results of" and simply "are obviously drink and wee hours"

Ramey Rieger
Germany
Local time: 12:36
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 67

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Helen Shiner: "wee hours" is rather Scots or rather twee, depending on whether the context is Scotland. Maybe improved perhaps with 'due to'?
6 hrs
  -> that would work!

disagree  philgoddard: This doesn't make sense.
6 hrs
  -> okay

neutral  Lancashireman: Did you really intend your comment on Pauline Alexiou's answer as an 'agree'? (At two a.m. noise and laughter from below clearly *reflect* drunkeness and the lateness of the hour). If so, it makes even less sense than what she was proposing.
12 hrs
  -> I really think I've read this wrong, sorry! I missed the VERB!!!

agree  Horst Huber: "Wee hours" might work, depending on the general tone of the translation?
6 days
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11 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
At two a.m. noise and laughter from below clearly indicate drunkeness and the lateness of the hour


Explanation:
sounds of drunkeness and merrymaking indicated the lateness of the hour

Example sentence(s):
  • The sounds of drunkeness and merrymaking indicated the lateness of the hour.
Pauline Alexiou
Local time: 13:36
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  mill2: are clearly due to...
32 mins
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20 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Späte
a complete disregard for other people's right to sleep


Explanation:
... drunken behaviour and a complete disregard for other people's right to sleep.

Sorry if that seems a bit long, but it does get the idea across.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 31 mins (2010-12-06 00:47:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"the lateness of the hour"
If you are reluctant to leave out spät/late, then this phrase would fit neatly into context.
290,000 hits for complete phrase: http://tinyurl.com/2b2chsb

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2010-12-06 01:42:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

late-night carousing

- Not Asakusa, where the late-night carousing of drunks, whores and theatergoers was the norm.
- According to the Hartford Courant, his late-night carousing with Mr. Kennedy earned them the reputation in Washington as the “Playboys of the Western World.”
- Some NBA coaches, when their teams come to face the Miami Heat, have referred to the phenomenon as South Beach-itis, where late-night carousing takes a toll on players.
- more...
http://www.wordnik.com/words/late-night carousing

86,000 hits for complete phrase: http://tinyurl.com/27c2j36


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2010-12-06 02:19:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

From the context of the whole paragraph as supplied by Dr Timm, I think that the 'all the ... tipped over' interpretation may be wrong. The author seems to be speaking in general terms rather than about the particular evening in question.

- Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte.
- At two o’clock in the morning, any noise or laughter in the courtyard below clearly counts as [is a clear sign of] drunkenness and late-night carousing.

Contrary to the latest opinion expressed below, 'lateness' would be meaningless in this context. 'Ebriety' (sic) even more so.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs (2010-12-06 14:01:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

As has been pointed out by Dr Timm below, ‘Späte’ is a made-up word (by analogy with Kälte, Länge, Höhe etc), so the author is trying to convey an abstract quality. It appears in a couplet with ‘Trunkenheit’ and consequently expresses something about the behaviour or attitude of the person or persons responsible for the ‘Lärmen und Lachen’. People who make a noise a two o’clock in the morning are displaying two characteristics:
1) They are drunk
2) They don’t care about the time

Welcome to KudoZ. As you are new to the system, you may not know that you are expected to close the question by selecting “the most helpful answer”: http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_asking/2.6#2.6 One of the criteria you may use is peer comments (agree/disagree/neutral) and the intrinsic merit of such comments.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2010-12-06 22:13:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

KudoZ is a pooling of ideas and research. If Johanna were to post her insight as a full answer, I dare say it would be a winner.

On the basis of her interpretation of Musil's text, I would propose the following:

"By two o’clock in the morning, the noise and laughter down below has given way to the occasional drunken outburst and to those other (faint) sounds that one only becomes aware of in the middle of the night."

Lancashireman
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:36
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 143

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Thayenga: Disregard for other people's right to sleep does not convey the meaning of "Späte"
6 hrs
  -> Read the whole answer. It develops as the full context emerges.

agree  Helen Shiner: with 'lateness of the hour' and 'late-night carousing/revelry'. Also with you on your comments in respect of ebriety and lateness. PS I read everything you wrote...
13 hrs
  -> Untorpedoed. Thanks, H.

disagree  Roland Nienerza: This reads like a protocol of a night shift police patrol and not like artistic prose. - As far as "getting the idea across" is concerned, what about "drinking people are noisy"?
13 hrs
  -> At which point did you stop reading?

agree  casper: You've suggested an excellent translation of the entire sentence in your Note added at 2 hrs. How about using 'drinking' instead of 'drunkenness' in the context ?
14 hrs
  -> I think they may be on their way home from the pub.

agree  philgoddard: Disagreers: I don't think you've read the whole of Andrew's answer.
14 hrs
  -> Thanks, Phil.
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1 day 10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
At two o'clock after midnight, the loud noises and laughter below clearly tell me...


Explanation:
...[or: betray] that someone is (returning home) roaring drunk in the small hours (of the night).

casper
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 6
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4 days   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
At two o'clock loud noise and laughter below give way to sounds of drunkenness and late hours


Explanation:
At two o'clock (in the morning) loud noise and laughter below give way to sounds of drunkenness and late hours.

I think there is a bit of jarring with 'late hours' to a native speaker's ears. And I prefer 'give way to' or 'cede' for their poetic effects.

At this late stage in the discussion, I realise I am indebted to debates gone before.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2010-12-10 01:17:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

At two in the morning loud noise and laughter have already given way to sounds of drunkenness and late hours

This is getting very close to Andrew's suggestion by now....

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2010-12-10 01:30:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or At two in the morning loud noise and laughter have really given way to sounds of drunkenness and late hours

Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:36
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 107

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Horst Huber: Yes, but not quite, maybe "give way to sounds of" adds things that should "go without saying"?
3 days 2 hrs
  -> Thanks, Horst, but what can be left out in German cannot be left out in English.
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4 days   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
At 2 a.m. .............are now clearly drunkenness and untime


Explanation:
Having come to this pretty late there was a lot to read through and I'm not sure I grasped all the innuendos.
So I am just trying for a Kunstwort as was suggested here:
" Johanna Timm, PhD: Späte is-as you noted above-a made-up word, ein Kunstwort (rooted, of course, in "spät"). Ideally, and in order to do justice to Robert Musil’s linguistic/poetic/literary genius, one would have to COIN a new English word (or modify an existing one)."

So here is my coining . Just as there is no word Späte, only spät there is no word untime, only untimely.

Or as opolt suggests "one strategy could be to "alienate" an existing expression in order to create a similar effect in English with different means"
So another possibility could be to say something enigmatic or puzzling such as "drunkenness and time"

British Diana
Germany
Local time: 12:36
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 12
Grading comment
Thanks!
Notes to answerer
Asker: Hi Diana, your suggestion isn't bad at all. Of course in English there's no equivalent of that kind of Kunstwort, but the rhythm of "drunkeness and time" is good and still enigmatic.

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Reference comments


1 hr peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: more context

Reference information:
"[...]Aber auch das war schon vorgekommen. Nach ein Uhr fängt die Straße an ruhiger zu werden; Gespräche beginnen als Seltenheit zu wirken; es ist hübsch, mit dem Ohr dem Vorschreiten der Nacht zu folgen. Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte. Mir wurde bewußt, daß ich auf etwas wartete, aber ich ahnte nicht, worauf.[...]"


    Reference: http://www.xs4all.nl/~jikje/Texts/da.html
Johanna Timm, PhD
Canada
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 69

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Lancashireman: Very insightful comment in the Discussion Box. If you were to post it as an answer, I would click on ‘agree’. I have appended yet another addendum to my contribution based on your interpretation.
23 hrs
  -> Danke für das Kompliment :-)
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1 hr peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: Info

Reference information:
I'm not saying this is a good translation.

The Blackbird
At two o'clock all the clamor and laughter below have clearly tipped over into intoxication and lateness.

It began on one evening much like any other. I'd stayed home, and after my wife had gone to bed, I sat myself down in the study; the only difference that night was that I didn't reach for a book or anything else,, but this too had happened before. After one o'clock the street starts getting quieter; conversations become a rarity; it is pleasant to follow the advent of evening with your ear. At two o'clock all the clamor and laughter below have clearly tipped over into intoxication and lateness. I realized that I was waiting for something, but I didn't know what for. By three o'clock - it was May - the sky grew lighter; I felt my wy through the dark apartment to the bedroom and lay down without a sound. I expected nothing more now but sleep, and that the next morning would bring a day like the one that had just passed. And soon I no longer knew whether I was awake or asleep.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jikje/Texts/bb.html


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2010-12-06 01:28:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Looks like the translator is Jerry van Beers.

Kim Metzger
Mexico
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 213

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
neutral  philgoddard: Is it possible that this translator wasn't clear about its meaning either? I don't think 'tipped over into lateness' makes sense.
6 mins
  -> Yes, this is just food for thought.
agree  Roland Nienerza: For me this reads quite good. - I would have preferred something like "ebriety" for "intoxication" - but I do not see any reason to avoid "lateness". @ philgoddard - "tipped over etc." makes as much sense as "schon deutlich Späte".// ebriety --> inebriety
27 mins
  -> Inebriety doesn't work for me.
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1 hr peer agreement (net): -1
Reference: There is no reason to avoid "lateness" - because it does not only mean "being late".

Reference information:
teness noun
Translation of LATENESS
1delay : retraso masculine, atraso masculine, tardanza feminine
2: lo avanzado (de la hora)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/spanish/lateness


ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Noun 1. lateness - quality of coming late or later in time
timing - the time when something happens
subsequentness, posteriority, subsequence - following in time
earliness - quality of coming early or earlier in time

Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2008 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lateness
noun delay, late date, retardation, tardiness, unpunctuality, belatedness, advanced hour A large crowd had gathered despite the lateness of the hour.
Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins Publishers 1995, 2002

Roland Nienerza
Native speaker of: German

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
neutral  Johanna Timm, PhD: Späte is-as you noted above-a made-up word, ein Kunstwort (rooted, of course, in "spät"). Ideally, and in order to do justice to Robert Musil’s linguistic/poetic/literary genius, one would have to COIN a new English word (or modify an existing one).
37 mins
disagree  Helen Shiner: Lateness used in this way is incomprehensible to a native speaker./Context is all. Clearly I do not say that 'lateness' does not exist as a word. Lateness on its own does not work; it would signify tardiness. Lateness of the hour does work.
12 hrs
  -> This comment is in surprisingly sharp contrast to established lexicography which, to be sure, is made "by natives for natives" - and overlooks the fact, that "Späte" will be rather incomprehensible for many De natives too.
neutral  Cilian O'Tuama: I'd say most German natives would understand Späte, even if they don't recognise it.
15 days
  -> Of course one understands and even recognises it - as a somewhat punning parallel formation to "Frühe", which is in the language, weil "Späte" is not.
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Voters for reclassification
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PRO / non-PRO
PRO (3): Lancashireman, Johanna Timm, PhD, Kim Metzger


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Changes made by editors
Dec 18, 2010 - Changes made by British Diana:
Edited KOG entry<a href="/profile/848384">British Diana's</a> old entry - "unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte" » "now clearly drunkenness and time"
Dec 17, 2010 - Changes made by British Diana:
Created KOG entryKudoZ term » KOG term
Dec 6, 2010 - Changes made by Ingo Dierkschnieder:
Term asked\"Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte\" » Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte
Dec 6, 2010 - Changes made by Kim Metzger:
LevelNon-PRO » PRO


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