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kirchenpolitische Durchsetzung

English translation: establishment (here)

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12:29 Nov 22, 2008
German to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - Religion / Church History
German term or phrase: kirchenpolitische Durchsetzung
Can anyone help me translate this phrase in the following sentence?

"Die Übersetzung zunächst des Neuen, dann des Alten Testaments durch Martin Luther (1522/34) war entscheidend für die Akzeptanz und ***kirchenpolitische Durchsetzung*** des protestantischen Glaubens in Deutschland."

The full context can be found here:
http://www.uni-duisburg-essen.de/einladung/Vorlesungen/epik/...

I'm trying to find a phrase that will convey the meaning of the German without becoming long and clumsy in English.

Thank you in advance!
Catherine Winzer
Germany
Local time: 21:24
English translation:establishment (here)
Explanation:
I generally agree with Jo Bennett's solution "as an ecclesiastical-political entity (in its own right)" -- I would have said "as a religious and political force", although both solutions might be over interpreting the original text somewhat -- but, since you are looking for something that is not "long and clumsy" in English, perhaps you should opt for the most radical solution of all ... leave it out!

Consider your target audience. People reading this text will presumably have a basic knowledge of the importance of the Protestant Revolution in Germany. There is no need to spell it out for them. You should also keep in mind that "-politisch" words are coined and thrown around rather loosely in German. If you slavishly translate every "-politisch" term as "policy" or "political" this and that, you will be doing your readers a grave disservice.

Similar questions have come up in the past.
Please see:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1736388 (arbeitspolitisch)
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/2136548 (berufspolitisch)
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/2306945 (interessenpolitisch)

Simply put, Martin Luther's translation of the New and then the Old Testament was decisive for the acceptance and establishment of the Protestant faith in Germany.

No one can argue with that statement.

Remember one of the cardinal rules of translating:
"When in doubt, leave it out."

Selected response from:

Paul Cohen
Greenland
Local time: 17:24
Grading comment
I didn't expect to cause so much discussion with my question! Thank you to everyone who contributed. I'm going with Paul's in the end - I find the "radical" solution the most appropriate here. Thank you!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
3 +4establishment (here)
Paul Cohen
4 +2establishment of [...] according to/in line with church/ecclesiastical policy
Helen Shiner
4establishment of (protestant) church politicsinterpr8er
2 +1implementing church policy
Jonathan MacKerron
3establishment as an ecclesiastical-political entity (in its own right)
Jo Bennett
3 -1ecclesiastic-political practicingIvana Zuppa-Baksa


  

Answers


15 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -1
ecclesiastic-political practicing


Explanation:
I think that practicing of Protestant ideas or religion could be a solution


Ivana Zuppa-Baksa
Croatia
Local time: 21:24
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in CroatianCroatian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Armorel Young: not ecclesiastic but eccelsiastical; not political but policy (related); not practicing but implementing or establishing
7 hrs
  -> Ok, you are right!
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59 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): +1
implementing church policy


Explanation:
another go

Jonathan MacKerron
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 23

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Helen Shiner: Sorry, Jonathan, on second thoughts, I don't think implement would work here, since you don't implement 'faith'. Otherwise 'policy' has my support! Sorry to chop and change.
1 hr

neutral  interpr8er: the kirchenpolitische Durchsetzung involved a major revolution: the Protestant revolution
3 hrs

agree  Rebecca Garber: One does implement policy, even for a particular church/faith/movement. I would use implementation with acceptance.
4 hrs
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
establishment of [...] according to/in line with church/ecclesiastical policy


Explanation:
the establishment of the Protestant faith/Church in Germany according to/in line with church/ecclesiastical policy.

I suddenly realised that my suggestion was sufficiently different from those of other respondents to merit its own answer.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2008-11-22 16:14:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Since my suggestion evidently causes such confusion, do please consider it to have Protestant in brackets between the 'with' and the 'church/ecclesiastical'!!

Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:24
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 16

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  interpr8er: quite the contrary is true.The Cath. Church held all the power!Protestants challenged this power.Until Martin Luther's translation of the bible, the "church/ecclesiastical policy" of the time was dominated by the CATHOLIC church/ emphasizing, not shouting
43 mins
  -> I am fully aware of the history, thanks; the Protestant faith was being ESTABLISHED and those who were implementing this would have had POLICIES. I don't normally do CAPITALS, but since you are SHOUTING unnecessarily....

agree  Lancashireman: Either this one or Paul C's more minimalist approach.
10 hrs
  -> Thanks, Andrew; if appropriate - I don't think we can tell from the limited context given - PC's approach may well be suitable (so often the case with translating GER-EN, so why not here?).

agree  Harald Moelzer (medical-translator)
1 day18 hrs
  -> Thank you, Harald

agree  xxxhazmatgerman: Mir scheint, mit kirchenpolitisch ist die Politik der damaligen Staaten (ecclesiastical) und weniger die der beherrschenden katholischen gemeint.
1 day21 hrs
  -> Thank you, hazmatgerman, and greetings!
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49 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
establishment of (protestant) church politics


Explanation:
possibly even championship?
http://www.librarything.com/work/411721

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 55 mins (2008-11-22 13:25:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

simply - "the rise of the Protestant Church" might be another option you might wish to consider

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2008-11-22 16:23:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-4641555355530941329

interpr8er
Local time: 21:24
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in GermanGerman

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Ingeborg Gowans
1 hr
  -> thank you, Ingeborg!

disagree  Helen Shiner: No, this is according to church policy, not of church politics/If that is so, how are you going to make it work with the rest of the sentence. My solution does not preclude the historical aspect.
1 hr
  -> According to church policy? Up until the time that Martin Luther translated the Bible, the Protestant religion had no chance whatsoever in Germany. Plus I also provided "the rise of the Protestant Church" as an option

disagree  Lancashireman: Source text has ‘Durchsetzung des … Glaubens’, not ‘Durchsetzung der ... Politik’. // Best option when you find your first answer is wrong is to ‘hide and repost’. Regards A.J.S.
12 hrs
  -> the Durchsetzung involved a major revolution, and I think you as well as several other people have entirely misunderstood this text! No policies involved here (none existed yet!),also see my statement made at 55 min re "the rise of the Protestant Church"

agree  Inge Meinzer: with "the rise of the Protestant Church"
2 days11 hrs
  -> thank you, Inge!!
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
establishment as an ecclesiastical-political entity (in its own right)


Explanation:
I agree with Helen Shiner, but this is another suggestion along the same lines.

Jo Bennett
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:24
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 12
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7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +4
establishment (here)


Explanation:
I generally agree with Jo Bennett's solution "as an ecclesiastical-political entity (in its own right)" -- I would have said "as a religious and political force", although both solutions might be over interpreting the original text somewhat -- but, since you are looking for something that is not "long and clumsy" in English, perhaps you should opt for the most radical solution of all ... leave it out!

Consider your target audience. People reading this text will presumably have a basic knowledge of the importance of the Protestant Revolution in Germany. There is no need to spell it out for them. You should also keep in mind that "-politisch" words are coined and thrown around rather loosely in German. If you slavishly translate every "-politisch" term as "policy" or "political" this and that, you will be doing your readers a grave disservice.

Similar questions have come up in the past.
Please see:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1736388 (arbeitspolitisch)
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/2136548 (berufspolitisch)
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/2306945 (interessenpolitisch)

Simply put, Martin Luther's translation of the New and then the Old Testament was decisive for the acceptance and establishment of the Protestant faith in Germany.

No one can argue with that statement.

Remember one of the cardinal rules of translating:
"When in doubt, leave it out."



Paul Cohen
Greenland
Local time: 17:24
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8
Grading comment
I didn't expect to cause so much discussion with my question! Thank you to everyone who contributed. I'm going with Paul's in the end - I find the "radical" solution the most appropriate here. Thank you!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Lancashireman: An audacious solution, typical of an experienced and confident translator with a portfolio of satisfied clients.
5 hrs
  -> Thank you, Andrew! Sometimes you have to be a little audacious just for the sake of clarity. The warning bells always start ringing in my head when I read words ending with "-politisch" and "-technisch".

agree  interpr8er: as you initially stated "as a religious and political force", also pls. see my comment made at 55 minutes re "the rise of the Protestant Church"//thank you, Paul!
21 hrs
  -> Yes, I saw your "the rise of the Protestant Church" -- that would also be an option!

agree  Harald Moelzer (medical-translator)
1 day13 hrs

agree  Inge Meinzer
2 days5 hrs
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