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Laugensaeure = carbolic acids?

English translation: carbolic acids [phenols]

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:Laugensaeure = carbolic acids?
English translation:carbolic acids [phenols]
Entered by: DR. RICHARD BAVRY
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18:50 Aug 27, 2001
German to English translations [PRO]
Science
German term or phrase: Laugensaeure = carbolic acids?
Neutralisierung der primären Laugensäure
lkoch99
Local time: 02:54
carbolic acids [phenols]
Explanation:
A little more context would be very helpful...with what you have given, one would tend to move in the direction of "carbolic acids" or "phenols"...since chemically speaking, phenols, or carbolic acids, are sometimes referred to as "alkali acids".
Selected response from:

DR. RICHARD BAVRY
Grading comment
thanks...there seems to be one other reference to Laugen in the text: "von pyritischen schwefel- und chlorhaltigen Erzen stammenden Laugen" - could these then be phenols?
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
na +1spelling?
Johanna Timm, PhD
na +1[ADDENDUM]DR. RICHARD BAVRY
nacarbolic acids [phenols]DR. RICHARD BAVRY


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


1 hr peer agreement (net): +1
spelling?


Explanation:
Forgive me if I'm completely off here, but are Lauge and Säure not concepts that exclude each other? But my chemical knowledge is definitely limited.

Are you sure it is not *Laugensäule*?
This would be lye column or lye tower,used for instance in debittering processes for citrus fruit
http://www.imecon.ch/citrus_d.htm.


    given
Johanna Timm, PhD
Canada
Local time: 23:54
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in pair: 7302
Grading comment
interesting but neutralization makes ammonia salts here

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Kim Metzger: That's the one thing I remember from chemistry class.
17 mins
  -> Boy,I'm relieved...

agree  Mats Wiman: They are contrary:Lauge has high Ph, Säure low
2 hrs

disagree  DR. RICHARD BAVRY: a bit of a stretch of the imagination, but so is the acid-base concept as regards species that deviate from the norm!
4 hrs
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The asker has declined this answer
Comment: interesting but neutralization makes ammonia salts here

5 hrs
carbolic acids [phenols]


Explanation:
A little more context would be very helpful...with what you have given, one would tend to move in the direction of "carbolic acids" or "phenols"...since chemically speaking, phenols, or carbolic acids, are sometimes referred to as "alkali acids".


    organic chemist (Ph.D.) 30 years
DR. RICHARD BAVRY
PRO pts in pair: 31
Grading comment
thanks...there seems to be one other reference to Laugen in the text: "von pyritischen schwefel- und chlorhaltigen Erzen stammenden Laugen" - could these then be phenols?
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

5 hrs peer agreement (net): +1
[ADDENDUM]


Explanation:
By way of shedding some small light on the apparent confusion...which hinges largely upon the "OH" substituent of a phenol (or carbolic acid), which prima facie would emphasize its alkaline nature as opposed to its potential acidic character, may I cite:

http://www.chem.wsu.edu/Chem102/102-PhenEth.html#alcphen
Phenols, Acidity, Ethers (1/29/96)
Phenols: Different From Alcohols?
Acidity: Strength, Ka, pKa

Alcohols and Phenols as Acids

Ethers: No OH, No Hydrogen Bonds, No Acidity



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If we compare the structure of a phenol to that of an alcohol, we can see similarities (both have OH groups> and some differences (there's no H on the carbon attached to the OH in a phenol). So we could expect that phenols do hydrogen bond to each other (that's an OH group property), and they don't oxidize to ketones (that requires the H-C-O-H) linkage.



What's more subtle is that phenols don't dehydrate either. To do so would require that the benzene ring (already "unsaturated") become more unsaturated. Without looking at a lot of detail, this would distort the geometry of the ring so much that it would be come very unstable, so the reaction doesn't occur.

The short version is: Phenols dont oxidize to ketones and they don't dehydrate. So they are really different in significant ways from alcohols.



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The Lewis description of a base is a molecule which has a pair of electrons it can donate to make a covalent bond. A Lewis acid is an atom which can accept those electrons and share them in a covalent bond. The hydrogen ion, H+, is the classic example. This description focuses on the structure and is very helpful in understanding organic reaction mechanisms, but it tells us very little about the relative strengths of acids (or bases).

For this, the Lowry-Bronsted description is helpful. (Review Appendix B.5-B.8). In this description, an acid is something that can transfer a proton, and a base is something which can accept it. Since accepting a proton means making a covalent bond to it using an unshared pair of electrons from the base, Lewis bases are Lowry-Bronsted bases. If we use the Lowry-Bronsted framework, the key idea is that acid-base reactions always go in the direction which produces weaker acids and bases at the expense of stronger acids and bases. The following examples may help.



The value of Ka (the equilibrium constant for the reaction of an acid with water to form hydronium ion) is a useful indicator of acid strength. The smaller Ka is, the weaker the acid is. Since pKa can be approximated by just taking the exponent (the number given as the superscript of 10) and changing its sign, we can also say that the larger pKa is, the weaker the acid. So if we can keep track of a few pKa numbers, we can predict the favored direction of equilibrium for an acid-base reaction. The acid in highest concentration at equilibrium will be the one with the larger (more positive) pKa.



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How does this apply to alcohols and phenols? Alcohols have pKa's very much like water, about 14, which means that like water, they are very weak acids. Dissolving an alcohol in water adds essentially nothing to the acidity of the solution.

By contrast, the pKa of a phenol is typically around 10. A solution of a phenol in water will be weakly acidic. A pKa of 10 means, though, that the Ka is 10-10. Interpreted as an equilibrium constant, this means that very little of the phenol has dissociated to a hydrogen ion and the phenoxide ion. The phenol is a very weak acid compared to something like sulfuric or hydrochloric acid, but it is a stronger acid than water or an alcohol

We'll use Ka's and pKa's again when we study carboxylic acids and amino acids, so be ready to review this material.



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Ethers don't do much. If we compare alcohols (ROH) to ethers (ROR'), the obvious difference is that ethers dont have the O-H bond. This means that they don't hydrogen bond to themselves and they can't be oxidized like alcohols. (There's an implication here that bonds between oxygen and carbon are harder to break than bonds between oxygen and hydrogen. That's generally so.) Ethers can't dehydrate, although they can undergo an analogous reaction which we won't study.



This list of things they don't do makes them excellent solvents for molecules which do react. A solvent shouldn't be doing much except providing a medium for the reaction. If a solvent gets into the act, it will mess it up.

Pretty much gets into the realm of the amphoteric (if not esoteric), no?


    see above
DR. RICHARD BAVRY
PRO pts in pair: 31

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Johanna Timm, PhD: thanks you and I apologize for my ignorance!
11 hrs
  -> well, as Alice said, "things get curiouser and curiouser..." A Christmas Lewis Carroll?;>)
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