Vatermörderkragen

English translation: Gladstone collar

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10:48 May 4, 2018
German to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Textiles / Clothing / Fashion / description of man\'s collar in portrait, early 1900s
German term or phrase: Vatermörderkragen
This occurs in the description of what seems to be an official portrait of a possible Beamter. He is wearing this with a "Krawatte". I would like an English equivalent rather than writing "stiff/starched winged collar" but can't think of one. Many thanks for your ideas in advance.
Maureen Millington-Brodie
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:23
English translation:Gladstone collar
Explanation:
This applies in particular if the collar tips are folded over/forward, i.e., you'd be looking at the "Kläppchenkragen" variant of the Vatermörder. The wing tip collar is a modern descendant of the Gladstone. Here are a few references:
https://www.wholesaleclearance.co.uk/blog/reference-guide-to...
http://www.fatherbrown.de/anmerkungen/01-einfalt/03-die-sond...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collar_(clothing)
https://www.slideshare.net/suniltalekar1/elements-of-fashion...
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatermörder
https://www.gq-magazin.de/mode-stil/fashion-guides/article/w...
Selected response from:

Hans-Jochen Trost
United States
Local time: 13:23
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +2Gladstone collar
Hans-Jochen Trost
3 +1patricide collar
Graeme Currie
4wingtip collar
BirgitBerlin
4stand-up collar
Daniel Arnold
3Winged Choker / Winged Collar
Clare Peartree
3soup-dipping collar
herbalchemist
3torture collar
Haigo Salow
3detachable high collar
Johanna Timm, PhD
3a murderously tight winged collar
Lancashireman
3chokehold collar
Michael Martin, MA


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
wingtip collar


Explanation:
This should be a wingtip collar.
See http://propercloth.com/reference/dress-shirt-collar-styles/

BirgitBerlin
Germany
Local time: 20:23
Works in field
Native speaker of: German
PRO pts in category: 32

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  philgoddard: I don't believe this is a reference to extreme tightness.
4 hrs

disagree  Graeme Currie: I have found several references to the wingtip as a later development of the "patricide collar". I think while wingtip is broadly correct, I would be tempted to use the 19th century name "patricide collar", as the German is no less obscure.
1 day 22 hrs
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6 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
Winged Choker / Winged Collar


Explanation:
Would a winged choker or winged collar work here?

Clare Peartree
Local time: 19:23
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
ein Vatermörderkragen
a murderously tight winged collar


Explanation:
"murderously tight" collates quite well in connection with clothing:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="murderously tight"&oq="mu...
This gets the idea across if your description is subjective.


Lancashireman
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:23
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 90
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
chokehold collar


Explanation:
Collar has to be stiff and upright, it seems, to qualify as a Vatermörderkragen.

Compare with the following sources:

"Als Vatermörder wird ein steifer, vorne offener, hoher Stehkragen des Herrenoberhemdes bezeichnet. Die lose nach oben abstehenden spitzen Enden des Vatermörders reichen bis über das Kinn.[1]" https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatermörder

"By the end of the 19th century, stiff, upright collars gradually began to loosen and diminish in size. Doctors believed that stiff collars posed medical concerns for their patients and in 1917, a physician named Walter G. Walford published a book called “Dangers in Neckwear” where he claimed that ailments including eczema, headaches, vertigo, strokes, deafness and many other illnesses could be directly attributed to tight neckwear. He further claimed that be loosening the collar, one could swiftly recover from a variety of ailments." https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/evolution-neckwear-tie-cra...

Here are our top 9 #shirtproblems:

half shirt
naked wrists
dress blouse
miami vice collar
big guy in a little shirt
cover up
chokehold collar
too short sleeves
chokehold
https://tealapparel.com/category/pants/


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Note added at 4 hrs (2018-05-04 15:35:33 GMT)
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I was almost tempted to post "stiff upper tip" to emphasize that one characteristic that everybody seems to be ignoring here (Stehkragen) but that would have landed me in treacherous territory..

Michael Martin, MA
United States
Local time: 14:23
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 16

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  philgoddard: This gets almost no meaningful hits. Your last reference simply means a collar that's too tight.
1 hr
  -> I could have simply said "stiff, upright collar" but that seemed too stiff and upright to me so I picked chokehold which seems to be its second most important feature...
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
stand-up collar


Explanation:
As far as I can see this is the most usual name for this kind of garment. Just google it.


    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaterm%C3%B6rder
Daniel Arnold
Germany
Local time: 20:23
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman, Native in EnglishEnglish
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
Gladstone collar


Explanation:
This applies in particular if the collar tips are folded over/forward, i.e., you'd be looking at the "Kläppchenkragen" variant of the Vatermörder. The wing tip collar is a modern descendant of the Gladstone. Here are a few references:
https://www.wholesaleclearance.co.uk/blog/reference-guide-to...
http://www.fatherbrown.de/anmerkungen/01-einfalt/03-die-sond...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collar_(clothing)
https://www.slideshare.net/suniltalekar1/elements-of-fashion...
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatermörder
https://www.gq-magazin.de/mode-stil/fashion-guides/article/w...

Hans-Jochen Trost
United States
Local time: 13:23
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Lancashireman: Your first reference is very persuasive. It mentions 'detachable', though I think this aspect might be redundant to the asker's context ("description of what seems to be an official portrait of a possible Beamter").
3 hrs
  -> Thanks!

agree  Graeme Currie: This looks good - see also https://www.pinterest.de/pin/101612535317623696/
1 day 17 hrs
  -> Thanks!
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8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
detachable high collar


Explanation:
Detachable starched collars became commonly worn on men's shirts around 1850. The idea was to present a clean appearance to the world without the expense of laundering the whole shirt.
http://www.darcyclothing.com/shop/collars.html

Detachable High-Collar
Nicknamed the “father killer,” the detachable high-collar was a popular men’s accessory in the 19th century that was attached to the shirt by studs. Seemingly harmless, the collar was so stiff and tight that it actually could cut off a man’s circulation, causing asphyxia or an abscess of the brain. In an obituary for John Cruetzi in 1888, The New York Times wrote, “His head dropped over on his chest and then his stiff collar stopped the windpipe and checked the flow of blood through the already contracted veins, causing the death to ensue from asphyxia and apoplexy.” In 1912, a man named William F. Dillon died from a similar situation. “Mr. Dillon apparently suffered from an attack of indigestion which caused a slight swelling of his neck and the collar choked him to death,” the paper said.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/corsets-muslin-disease-and-mor...


Johanna Timm, PhD
Canada
Local time: 11:23
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 230
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10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
torture collar


Explanation:
This term would imply how torturous wearing this collar is.


    https://listverse.com/2014/10/18/10-horrifying-torture-devices-used-at-the-castle-of-the-counts/
Haigo Salow
United States
Local time: 14:23
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
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1 day 23 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
patricide collar


Explanation:
The urban legend that a son slit his father's throat by accident with one of these collars appears to have led to the the name being adopted in English as well as German.

Example sentence(s):
  • There are many types of detachable collar, including the gloriously named patricide collar.

    Reference: http://walternelson.com/dr/node/211
    https://julieweathers.com/2016/04/16/blogging-z-n-neckcloth
Graeme Currie
Local time: 20:23
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Clare Peartree: Agree https://yakmax.com/fashion-history-the-patricide-collar/
11 hrs
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23 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
soup-dipping collar


Explanation:
If French humour was still in style.

Titel T. M., Typografische Monatsblätter, Band 84;Band 1965
Mitwirkende Personen Schweizerischer Typographenbund
Original von Pennsylvania State University
Digitalisiert 18. Sept. 2009
Jahrhunderts nannte man einen mit langen Spitzen besetzten Hemdenkragen, wie er der damaligen Mode entsprach, einen parasite, das heißt einen Parasiten, einen Schmarotzer, weil er seiner Form wegen stets in Gefahr war, Suppen usw. mitzuessen. Aber diese scherzhafte Bezeichnung haben die Deutschen, als sie sie übernahmen, um sie zu übersetzen, mißverstanden. Sie verwechselten parasite mit dem lautlich anklingenden parricide (Vatermörder), vergleiche den Parricida ...

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Note added at 23 hrs (2018-05-05 10:28:46 GMT)
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Also in Duden:
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Vatermoerder
[wohl volksetymologische Umdeutung der älteren Bezeichnung französisch parasite (= »Mitesser«, an den langen, nach oben gerichteten Ecken blieben leicht Speisereste hängen) zu: parricide = Vatermörder (1)] (scherzhaft) (früher getragener) hoher, steifer Kragen an Herrenhemden mit aufwärts bis an die Wangen ragenden Spitzen

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Note added at 1 day 20 hrs (2018-05-06 07:25:13 GMT)
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That should be soup-slurping or food-catching/mooching :)
For your purposes, 'Edwardian wing collar', which keeps some of the German flair, might be good.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-wing-collar.htm
The wing-collar shirt is thought to have originated during the Edwardian era in the early 1900s. It may have been popularized by the British monarch King Edward VII, who was typically known for "evening informal" attire. Edward VII might have worn a highly starched wing-collar shirt with a tailcoat and matching trousers.

https://www.cycleworld.com/2016/03/07/motogp-racing-motorcyc...
Look at the devices currently being tested; Yamaha and Ducati have shown stubby “moustache” winglets, located in the accelerated airflow moving around the fairing nose, and Honda’s look like the turned-up points of an Edwardian gentleman’s wing collar

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Note added at 2 days 21 hrs (2018-05-07 08:46:06 GMT)
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I personally like "pique-assiette" collar. No search hits, but it sounds like a real style that real people in Europe would wear.
Inspired by The Mooch:
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/the-mooch.3347030/

herbalchemist
Germany
Local time: 20:23
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 11
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