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Laico

English translation: even though he did not belong to any religious order/not a clergyman

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06:35 Oct 16, 2001
Italian to English translations [Non-PRO]
Art/Literary
Italian term or phrase: Laico
"Dante fu laico e, malgrado le ristrettezze della famiglia, ricevette una buona educazione."
I understand this to mean that he recieved a religious education, but does the English 'layman' confer this idea? Or does it mean something else?
Angus Martin
English translation:even though he did not belong to any religious order/not a clergyman
Explanation:
I agree with Gianfranco. We have, however, to exercise a little caution, both linguistically and historically.

Layman does mean laico, but also "dilettante" as opposed to "professional".

See the definition in Webster:

Layman \Lay"man\n.; pl. {Laymen}. [Lay, adj. + man.] 1. One of the people, in distinction from the clergy; one of the laity; sometimes, a man not belonging to some particular profession, in distinction from those who do.
From WordNet (r) 1.6 (wn)
layman n : someone who is not a clergyman or a professional person [syn: {layperson}] [ant: {clergyman}]

I have found the text you are translating but I still have trouble understanding what they mean. It could mean that he was not a practicing catholic, that he did not believe in the preachings of the Church.

The way I would solve this puzzle is through a negative construction and say: "even though he did not belong to any religious order/he was not ordained/he was not a clergyman" he received a good education. ON the assumption, that only people who were in some religious order did receive a good education.

ciao Angus

paola l m
Selected response from:

CLS Lexi-tech
Local time: 21:38
Grading comment
Thanks Paola. I guess it is a question of choosing whether to use the word 'layman' as it was used in Dante's time or to explain instead of translate. I haven't decided yet which I will use, but your comments make it a question of stylistic choice and not of doubt.....
3 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +2even though he did not belong to any religious order/not a clergyman
CLS Lexi-tech
4laico = layman
gianfranco
4ricevette un'educazione laica
anusca
4 -1of the lower nobilty
anusca


  

Answers


10 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
laico = layman


Explanation:
"laico" means "not belonging to a religious order"

At that time it was common for men to receive a good education only if they were studying for priestohood or they were rich.
Dante received a good education despite of not being into a religious career and not being from a very rich family.

Yes, in English "layman" may convey the same meaning

GM


gianfranco
Brazil
Local time: 00:38
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian
PRO pts in pair: 538

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Nicola (Mr.) Nobili
46 mins

disagree  Jerold Stamp: I disagree with your definition in that "Ordine Francescano Secolare is a religous Order of laymen, yet the word is OK.
1 hr
  -> Dante non era un religioso, e in questo contesto (e quasi sempre) 'laico' non ha il significato che hai segnalato
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45 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
of the lower nobilty


Explanation:
Dante was born in Florence between late May and early June 1265, into a family of the lower nobility. His mother died in his childhood, his father when Dante was 18 years old. The most significant event of his youth, according to his own account, was his meeting in 1274 with Beatrice, the woman whom he loved, and whom he exalted, first in La vita nuova (The New Life) and later in his greatest work La divina commedia (The Divine Comedy). Scholars have identified Beatrice with the Florentine noblewoman Beatrice Portinari.

____________________

Di antica nobiltà sono i suoi antenati, discendenti addirittura dai Romani. Cacciaguida, suo trisavolo, a Firenze vive con le famiglie dei fratelli Moronto ed Eliseo, nella zona del Mercato Vecchio; armato cavaliere dall'imperatore Corrado III, mentre era al suo seguito durante la seconda Crociata, muore in Terrasanta. La moglie, una Alighiera forse di Ferrara, gli dà dei figli, uno dei quali si chiama come lei, Alighiero I, da cui derivano i rami dei Bellincione e dei Bello. Al primo appartiene Durante, chiamato Dante, figlio di Alighiero II e nipote di Bellincione.
Il padre di Dante vivacchia facendo il cambiavalute e forse anche l'usuraio, a giudicare da alcune voci maligne. Abita nel Sesto di Porta San Pietro, è di tradizione guelfa, ma non si getta certo nel vivo della lotte faziose; è figura scialba che il poeta passa sotto silenzio. Dante nasce in una casa posta di fronte alla Torre della Castagna, verso la fine del mese di maggio del 1265, sotto la costellazione dei Gemelli da Alighiero Alighieri di Bellincione e da donna Bella (Gabriella) di casato ignoto e battezzato in San Giovanni.
Così racconta Boccaccio:
__________

Inoltre Zingarelli:
(arcaico) illeterato, ignorante (in senso buono), semplice (non appartenente a ordini vari ecc...

insomma di origini relativamente modeste

slt
anusca


    Reference: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/6681/danteb.htm
    Reference: http://www.fauser.it/biblio/bios/bio043.htm
anusca
Italy
Local time: 03:38
Native speaker of: Italian
PRO pts in pair: 164

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Nicola (Mr.) Nobili: "laico" in the meaning from "Zingarelli" is nowadays only used for low-profile monks and friars.
10 mins
  -> forse non ha frequentatop una scuola religiosa, p. es. quella dei Gesuiti, vedi sotto
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47 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
even though he did not belong to any religious order/not a clergyman


Explanation:
I agree with Gianfranco. We have, however, to exercise a little caution, both linguistically and historically.

Layman does mean laico, but also "dilettante" as opposed to "professional".

See the definition in Webster:

Layman \Lay"man\n.; pl. {Laymen}. [Lay, adj. + man.] 1. One of the people, in distinction from the clergy; one of the laity; sometimes, a man not belonging to some particular profession, in distinction from those who do.
From WordNet (r) 1.6 (wn)
layman n : someone who is not a clergyman or a professional person [syn: {layperson}] [ant: {clergyman}]

I have found the text you are translating but I still have trouble understanding what they mean. It could mean that he was not a practicing catholic, that he did not believe in the preachings of the Church.

The way I would solve this puzzle is through a negative construction and say: "even though he did not belong to any religious order/he was not ordained/he was not a clergyman" he received a good education. ON the assumption, that only people who were in some religious order did receive a good education.

ciao Angus

paola l m


CLS Lexi-tech
Local time: 21:38
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian
PRO pts in pair: 1505
Grading comment
Thanks Paola. I guess it is a question of choosing whether to use the word 'layman' as it was used in Dante's time or to explain instead of translate. I haven't decided yet which I will use, but your comments make it a question of stylistic choice and not of doubt.....

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Nicola (Mr.) Nobili: Nice rephrasing
9 mins

agree  gianfranco: sono d'accordo con la costruzione negativa per evitare malintesi su layman=non professionale
12 mins

agree  Chiara Yates: Dante was very religious but not a clergyman so this seams to be the best translations
41 mins

disagree  Jerold Stamp: Layman wouldn't confuse me with Dante
45 mins
  -> perhaps, but the phrase is a non-sequitur. It should say "pur essendo laico e di famiglia modesta, D......"
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
ricevette un'educazione laica


Explanation:
ha frequentato una scuola
paragonabaile alla scuola pubblica e non una scuola privata, necessariamente collegata ad un convento o simile istituzione oppure ha avuto dei precettori laici e non religiosi

Educazione laica è calzante ed allo stesso tempo il termine è tanto vago quanto lo è laico da solo.


Forse è questo!

slt
anusca

anusca
Italy
Local time: 03:38
Native speaker of: Italian
PRO pts in pair: 164
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The asker has declined this answer




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