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carbonada

English translation: rich beef stew in wine

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Italian term or phrase:carbonada
English translation:rich beef stew in wine
Entered by: Alexander Chisholm
Options:
- Contribute to this entry
- Include in personal glossary

16:54 Nov 22, 2008
Italian to English translations [PRO]
Marketing - Food & Drink / local specialities
Italian term or phrase: carbonada
Menu item in a ski refuge (italian alps).

How about beef stew in wine (in brackets of course)?
Alexander Chisholm
Local time: 12:08
beef and onions stewed in wine
Explanation:
mmmmmmm

"lunghe soste durante le quali erano inevitabili gli scambi gastronomici." Ci credo. Ecco il link: http://www.ilgiornaledelcibo.it/ricette/ricetta-scheda.asp?s...

Notare che la birra si usa nella versione fiamminga, il vino ovviamente in quella valdostana.

E buon appetito!

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Note added at 1 day37 mins (2008-11-23 17:32:41 GMT)
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I mentioned the onions because unlike so many other dishes that involve onions in a minor role, in this one the onions and the beef are playing a duet as equals :) - at least according to the recipe I posted (above).
Selected response from:

Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:08
Grading comment
Many thanks to all for the suggestions etc.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +7beef and onions stewed in wine
Tom in London
5carbonnade flamande
Traducendo Co. Ltd
4rich beef casserole / rich casserole of beef
Rachel Fell
4Carbonada (Beef stewed in wine with onions)Michael Mottola
4 -1carbonada (beef braised in wine)
Alessandra Renna
3meat stew cooked in beerSusan Gastaldi
3 -1Ground meat/thick soup
Gad Kohenov
Summary of reference entries provided
Stew or braisedxxxLionel_M
stewed or braised?justdone
Braise/stewMichael Mottola

Discussion entries: 7





  

Answers


3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
meat stew cooked in beer


Explanation:
I think this is it but am not sure

Susan Gastaldi
Local time: 12:08
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
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26 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -1
Ground meat/thick soup


Explanation:
Two possibilities.

Gad Kohenov
Israel
Local time: 13:08
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench, Native in HebrewHebrew
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  xxxLionel_M: I don't think it's a soup Fox
3 mins

disagree  Tom in London: no, not a soup
39 mins
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
carbonnade flamande


Explanation:
so che wikipedia non è il massimo dei riferimenti ma, oltretutto viovo nella patria della carbonnade.
si tratta di uno spezzatino tipico delle fiandre, carne magra e stracotta nel vino o nella birra. ottima. in inglese si trova riportato numerosissime volte come carbonnade (flamande) ovvero il nome originale con la variante carbonade. l'italiana carbonada è solo la variante nostrana del piatto fiammigo.

buon lavoro

Traducendo Co. Ltd
Malta
Local time: 12:08
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Emanuela Galdelli: Spesso i piatti vengono definiti nellla lingua originale.La carbonnade è un piatto squisito che cucino spesso (me lo ha insegnato una belga) ed ho trovato corrispondenze per "Belgian carbonnade","carbonnade flamande" e "carbonnade à la Flamande".
3 hrs

disagree  Michael Mottola: Lo lascerei come carbonada, con una spiegazione in inglese in parentesi... l'origine per me non ha molta importanza nel menu', serve una spiegazione del piatto in inglese accanto a carbonada, il quale non e' traducibile.
23 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
carbonada (beef braised in wine)


Explanation:
Essendo un piatto tipici io non tradurrei assolutamente il nome, perchè si perderebbe molto del suo fascino. Aggiungerei una traduzione-descrizione tra parentesi.
Mi sento anche di concordare per una volta con Mirra:-)) ed essere in disaccordo con Marcy. La maggior parte della ricette prescrive di rosolare la carne nel burro. E se la carne deve essere rosolata, allora si tratta di brasato e non di stufato. Infatti la differenza sostanziale tra le 2 forme di cotture è proprio quella.

Stufato
Da Wibo.
Vai a: navigazione, ricerca

Stufato deriva da stufa, sopra cui originariamente veniva cotto, non richiedendo calore vivo. Si intende una carne, genericamente tagliata a spezzatino, soggetta a cottura lenta, sobbollitura, in liquido acquoso, verdure ed eventualmente aromi; la carne può anche esser stata marinata in precedenza nel vino. La differenza teorica fra brasare e stufare, risiederebbe nel fatto che per quest'ultima, si intenda una cottura diretta in grasso e liquido, a fuoco basso, quindi senza rosolatura iniziale della carne, mentre nel brasato si ha una preventiva rosolatura. Altre differenze più o meno pregnanti sono date dal quantitativo di liquido di cottura: lo stufato cuoce immerso nel liquido di cottura, il brasato non deve esserne mai ricoperto, c'e' chi attribuisce la presenza di verdure solo al brasato e non allo stufato o stracotto ma questa differenziazione pare estremamente fallace sopratutto arrivando a considerare fra gli stufati anche gli stew anglosassoni. Sulla pezzatura della carne: per lo stufato si tratta di pezzi uniformi e non grandi, mentre per il brasato sono pezzature superiori alle precedenti fino a pezzi interi per lo stracotto; inoltre, che a priori si possa dire che la stufatura abbia tempi più lunghi della brasatura è erroneo, dipende dalla ricetta in questione. Come liquido di cottura, la tradizione italiana tende ad identificarlo con vino, ma può essere anche acqua, birra o brodo. Tale differenza non è comunque universalmente accettata, molti vedono la rosolatura compatibile anche con gli stufati e individuano nella differente pezzatura della carne, l'elemento di distinzione: pezzi interi per il brasato, carne a spezzatino o di poco superiore per gli 'stufati.
http://www.wibo.it/mediawiki/index.php/Stufato

Alessandra Renna
Local time: 12:08
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian
PRO pts in category: 23

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  justdone: http://www.alberghiera.it/page.asp?idc=429&Tecniche-di-cottu... - il mio link dice che entrambe le tecniche prevedolo la rosolatura, mentre la differenza è data da quantità di liquido e taglio intero/pezzetti. Ma mi sa che son scuole di pensiero :)
11 mins
  -> Marcy, grosso modo wibo e il tuo link dicono la stessa cosa: nella brasatura si rosola e nella stufatura no. E la carbonada prevedela rosolatura. Poi si sa: ogni piatto, compreso il tipo di cottura, non è mai standardizzato

neutral  xxxMilena Bosco: Sigillare nel jargon specifico vuol dire rosolare o friggere le parti esposte della carne della carne ad alta temperatura."Stewed" implica "sigillare" e poi cuocere lentamente pezzi piccoli come quelli della ricetta in questione. Buona serata, Milena
1 hr
  -> Non so cosa intendi per sigillare. Io parlo di rosolare. E cmq questa non è una ricetta anglosassone. La mia preferenza per braised sta solo nel fatto che a differenza dello stufato, nel brasato la carne è rosolata come appunto nella carbonade.

disagree  Michael Mottola: non e' brasato se si usa carne tagliata a pezzetti, vedi spiegazione sotto
22 hrs
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17 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Carbonada (Beef stewed in wine with onions)


Explanation:
Definetly stewed... Braising and stewing are the same process. The only difference is that stewing uses stew meat, which is not a sub-primal cut of meat. Larger cuts of meat are primal cuts, that are broken down into steaks or smaller cuts which are then ready to cook. Sub-primals that are cut into smaller pieces that can no longer be defined with standard butcher jargon are referred to as stew meat. If this is used in carbonada, it is a stew.... Both stews and braises can be seared off or browned, both are simmered and not boiled, both can be cooked and covered in any type of liquid, although braising is usually covered in less liquid, it can be almost entirly covered, only when it is boiled (at a higher temp than a braise) would it be classified as boiled meat, and both are done when they are fork tender... at least that's what they taught me in culinary school.

Michael Mottola
Italy
Local time: 12:08
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
rich beef casserole / rich casserole of beef


Explanation:
may as well offer another option! Actually, I'd leave the Italian name and add e.g. rich beef casserole, as an explanation/description; I think mention of onions is a bit superfluous in such things, as they are nearly always included in such dishes.

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Note added at 1 hr (2008-11-22 18:19:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Also, wine would probably be used here rather than beer, but I'm not sure that it's necessary to mention that really - but perhaps e.g. rich beef casserole with wine

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2008-11-22 18:22:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

a version of the original dish:
Tom Parker Bowles from Market Kitchen
Tom Parker Bowles' recipe for this famous Belgian casserole of beef cooked in a rich, dark beer sauce is ideal for both family and entertaining
http://uktv.co.uk/food/recipe/aid/600810

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Note added at 3 hrs (2008-11-22 20:06:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or even "classic beef casserole" in brackets - or stew, though it can sound less appealing sometimes

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs (2008-11-23 11:20:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I just checked in one of my Italian cookery books where there is a recipe for Carbonata Valdostana, which it renders in English as Beef Casserole, Valle d'Aosta style

Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:08
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 132
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7 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +7
beef and onions stewed in wine


Explanation:
mmmmmmm

"lunghe soste durante le quali erano inevitabili gli scambi gastronomici." Ci credo. Ecco il link: http://www.ilgiornaledelcibo.it/ricette/ricetta-scheda.asp?s...

Notare che la birra si usa nella versione fiamminga, il vino ovviamente in quella valdostana.

E buon appetito!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day37 mins (2008-11-23 17:32:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I mentioned the onions because unlike so many other dishes that involve onions in a minor role, in this one the onions and the beef are playing a duet as equals :) - at least according to the recipe I posted (above).

Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:08
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 72
Grading comment
Many thanks to all for the suggestions etc.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Umberto Cassano: Scrumptious !
3 mins

agree  xxxLionel_M: http://projects.washingtonpost.com/recipes/2006/02/08/carbon...
11 mins

agree  justdone: definitely "stewed" - see reference ;-)
45 mins
  -> yes- thanks

agree  texjax DDS PhD: http://books.google.com/books?ct=result&ie=ISO-8859-1&output...
4 hrs

agree  xxxMilena Bosco: Tom. in my modest opinion you are right. Regards, Milena
4 hrs
  -> thanks, Milena

agree  simon tanner: clearly right, but not sure that I'd mention the onions, especially since this is on a menu, not a recipe in a cookery book. Onions, essential and delicious as they are tend only to be mentioned when unavoidable, eg onion soup, fried onion rings etc
17 hrs

agree  Michael Mottola: if onions are an essential ingredient and not just part of the base (celery,carrots,and onion) I would include it
1 day24 mins
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Reference comments


1 hr peer agreement (net): -1
Reference: Stew or braised

Reference information:
If you search Google for "carbonada" you'll have 1134 GHITS for "Meat stewed" and 286 GHITS for "Meat braised"
For "meat grilled" ghits are 7

I would say that "stewed" is more frequent than braised which is anyway correct and more "Italian" (brasato)

xxxLionel_M
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 11

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
disagree  Mirra_: STEWED (24 hits) http://www.google.it/search?num=30&hl=it&safe=off&q=carbonad... BRAISED (205 hits) http://www.google.it/search?num=30&hl=it&safe=off&q=carbonad...
17 mins
  -> I said MEAT ! not BEEF ! Please use "advance search"
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50 mins
Reference: stewed or braised?

Reference information:
Luckily my cooking is a lot better then my english...
People keep on using the two words as if they were sinomyms.
They are not in italian and, as I just checked, they don't seem to be sinonyms in english either.
http://www.allcookingtips.com/2006/10/10/braising-foods/


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 ore (2008-11-22 18:59:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

However, Google sometimes seems to be the sum of world knowlegde. Sometimes of world ignorance.
I wouldn't trust it too much.
To braise you have one big piece of meat and a small amount of liquid (brasato al barolo is may be the best known brasato in italy)
To stew, you have meat in chunks and more liquid.
This kind of cooking, originally made on a stove, was used to get meat more tender (you don't need to have a good tender cut) - that's why it is so common in all traditional cooking.
M2P

justdone
Italy
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
neutral  Mirra_: the most of the Web evidences dealt with braised, the 2nd (very rare) option was 'grilled' ;) R:ohhhh you are sooooooo right indeed :)) e buona serata anche a te cara! :))
7 mins
  -> Ciao Mirra! Non ci faremo insegnare come si cucina una piatto nostro da loro, vero ;-) Già noi italiani, che siamo palati sopraffini, a volte mischiamo le due cose... piuttosto ti avrei passato uno "spezzatino" ma un "brasato"... :-O. Buona serata! Marcy
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4 hrs peer agreement (net): -1
Reference: Braise/stew

Reference information:
Use braise for larger cuts of meat. Technically, when a steak or sub-prime cut of meat is broken down into use stew. The methods for a braise and a stew are otherwise the same... hope that helps in some way

Michael Mottola
Italy
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
disagree  Mirra_: several online recipes state that you are wrong, as you can see by looking at the links I reported in my answer R: you too can be wrong, can't you? :)
20 hrs
  -> Of course I can, but what I mean is that there are a lot of amature recipes that use incorrect terminology. I know this because I spent helf of my life looking at them as a cook... I'm pretty sure on this one :)
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