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会社ありき

English translation: (Concept of) the corporation above all else

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Japanese term or phrase:$B2q<R$"$j$-(B
English translation:(Concept of) the corporation above all else
Entered by: Shannon Morales

00:21 Sep 4, 2004
Japanese to English translations [PRO]
Bus/Financial - Business/Commerce (general) / corporate culture
Japanese term or phrase: 会社ありき
日本では戦後「会社ありき」で国の復興を支えてきました。　Context is corporate governance, how business culture has changed.
Shannon Morales
United States
Local time: 01:50
(Concept of) corporation above all else
Explanation:
Analogy might be "Gesellschaft uber alles". Indivisuals were often victimized.
Selected response from:

Nobuo Kawamura
Japan
Local time: 15:50
Grading comment
3 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +3(Concept of) corporation above all else
Nobuo Kawamura
4"In the beginning was the company"
kokuritsu
1 +3company-centered, employer as be-all end-all
Maynard Hogg
4 -1the Japanese kaisha (modern sense)
Roddy Stegemann


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +3
(Concept of) corporation above all else


Explanation:
Analogy might be "Gesellschaft uber alles". Indivisuals were often victimized.

Nobuo Kawamura
Japan
Local time: 15:50
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in JapaneseJapanese
PRO pts in category: 21

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Katalin Horváth McClure: Yes, I think so.
2 hrs
agree  Maynard Hogg: This version might fit the current context better, but will the reader really understand the full implications? See my notes.
4 hrs
agree  Hidenori Nakamura
23 hrs
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
"In the beginning was the company"


Explanation:
"In the beginning was the company"

The expression「（初めに）会社ありき」is considered to be derived from the opening words of Gospel of John (John 1.1) which says "In the beginning was the Word."

In the given context, the term is used to mean:

In a social climate where people took it for granted that "In the beginning was the company."


    Reference: http://homepage1.nifty.com/senior-u/words.htm
kokuritsu
Local time: 15:50
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in JapaneseJapanese
PRO pts in category: 16

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Maynard Hogg: Thank for the historical background, but such Christian references might be lost on North American readers to say nothing of "international" readers.
3 hrs
  -> Thanks for your comment.
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19 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 1/5Answerer confidence 1/5 peer agreement (net): +3
会社ありき
company-centered, employer as be-all end-all


Explanation:
The context is frequently negative, one of "the company will provide--if your surrender all your time, all your freedom, all your life." Even then "lifetime employment" was a myth.

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Note added at 6 hrs 0 min (2004-09-04 06:21:29 GMT)
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In the context of this single sentence, I¥'d prefer a simple ¥"dedication to the company¥" instead of overloaded phrases like mine and ¥"uber alles.¥"

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Note added at 8 hrs 25 mins (2004-09-04 08:47:16 GMT)
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元国語学者なので、相談できる専門が大勢います。
文語です。ありは動詞で、在る有るの意味。きは助動詞、特殊型で、過去
の動作、状態を表¥します。口語訳すると、「会社が在りました」ということです。この文脈では、日本が戦後、復興した主な理由は、（個人や家庭生活より）会社を優先してきたからです。というニュアンスです。「会社」が何よりも大事でした。ということを強調しています。「ありきたり」の省略ではありません。

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Note added at 8 hrs 30 mins (2004-09-04 08:51:21 GMT)
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As my native informant points out, what it means is ¥"just¥" 「会社が在りました」, but as usual this phrase has taken on a life of its own (一人歩きし出しました), so now carries a lot of baggage that is NOT conveyed by a short, sweet English phrase. ¥"dedication to the company¥" で誤魔化すしかないようです。

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Note added at 11 hrs 51 mins (2004-09-04 12:12:57 GMT)
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大辞林第二版(村松明編)によると「き:(助動)話し手が直接に体験したことを回想して述べる」
In other words, the first person I asked told me where to look in my 国語辞典.

Maynard Hogg
Canada
Local time: 23:50
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 40

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  snowbees: 会社（本位）主義、企業中心社会：http://web.iss.u-tokyo.ac.jp/‾osawa/02_senmonbunya/01_senmon.htm
2 hrs
  -> Yes, those terms are more to the point, but somebody decided to show off his/her schoolbook classical Japanese, I guess.
agree  Katalin Horváth McClure: Yes, this would be my guess, too.
3 hrs
agree  Hidenori Nakamura
1 day 42 mins
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40 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
��会社ありき (Unicode UTF-8 encoded)
the Japanese kaisha (modern sense)


Explanation:
「ありきたり」の省略のことではありませんか。


この文脈では、「ありきたり」という表現が日本の社会的な元々の拠点を表すと思います。この場合は会社と産業制度が取り替えるようです。

英文：An important pillar of Japanese postwar reconstruction was the Japanese kaisha.


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Note added at 10 hrs 18 mins (2004-09-04 10:39:53 GMT)
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http://homepage.mac.com/moogoonghwa/Imagine/deception/motive...。

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Note added at 1 day 13 hrs 44 mins (2004-09-05 14:05:43 GMT)
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現代の日本の会社と戦後の会社を比較すると、数年の企業と産業の発展を考えるべきです。復興時代の現象だけではありませんでした。その発展は８０年代の後半まで継続していたものです。そんな長期発展をよい日本語で述べると、「ありきたり」という表現は「在りました」の意味よりも優れると思います。

なお、「ありき」という表現はどの意味を表しても、上記の発展を表さなければ、日本の産業史に基づいてのよい意味を表さないことを考えられます。日本の会社主義という歴史的な現象が大変な複雑の現象でした。必ずしも家庭と会社のトレードオフをすることだけではありませんでした。



Roddy Stegemann
United States
Local time: 23:50
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 24

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Maynard Hogg: 「ありきたり」の省略のことではありません！口語訳すると、「会社が在りました」ということです。
7 hrs
  -> 情報を提供するネーチッブの一人はいいけれども、一人の意見であるので、依頼することができるかないか分かりません。他のネーチッブスピーカーの意見を聞かせて頂きたいと思いますが
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