"Stat rosa pristina nomine; nomina nuda tenemus."

English translation: And what is left of the rose is only its name...

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)

Latin term or phrase:	"Stat rosa pristina nomine; nomina nuda tenemus."
English translation:	And what is left of the rose is only its name...
Entered by:	benstoik

20:45 Oct 28, 2004

Latin to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature / Umberto Eco

Latin term or phrase: "Stat rosa pristina nomine; nomina nuda tenemus."

Just finished reading Eco's The Name of the Rose. The book ends with this
I have found an explanation here:
http://listserv.dom.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind9609&L=stumpers...
but it did not satisfy me completely.

nlingua KudoZ activity Questions: 2 (none open) Answers: 93
Local time: 01:10

And what is left of the rose is only its name...

Explanation:
And what is left of the rose is only its name...
(just have in mind that with Latin "tenemus"(we have) it's more personal)
(Spanish: Y de la ROSA nos queda el nombre...)

Selected response from:

benstoik
Germany

Grading comment

Thank you very much. Also Valeria and kaydee for the link to Eco's own explanation

4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

4 +4

And what is left of the rose is only its name...

benstoik

the ancient rose exists in the name; we have only bare names

kaydee

"the rose remains in its true name - <though> we have <left with> bare names only

ironic0n

Answers

54 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +4

And what is left of the rose is only its name...

Explanation:
And what is left of the rose is only its name...
(just have in mind that with Latin "tenemus"(we have) it's more personal)
(Spanish: Y de la ROSA nos queda el nombre...)

Reference: http://www.infoaragon.net/servicios/blogs/miriam/index.php?i...

benstoik
Germany
Works in field
Native speaker of:

Polish
PRO pts in category: 4

Grading comment

Thank you very much. Also Valeria and kaydee for the link to Eco's own explanation

1 hr confidence:

stat rosa pristina nomine; nomina nuda tenemus the ancient rose exists in the name; we have only bare names

Explanation:
or, the rose remains fresh in the name; we have only bare names
I think the following refs are useful, esp. Eco's own comment.

(1) http://library.ucsc.edu/exhibits/roselit.html

Eco's own best known work, the title decorations of which have been borrowed here as bookmarks, closes with the 12th century lines of Bernard of Morlay:
stat rosa pristina nomine nomina nuda tenemus
the rose stays fresh in its name we have only the name

(2)http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194...

"Stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus" - The ancient rose continues to exist thru its name, yet its name is all that remains to us (Umberto Eco - "The name of the rose")

(3) http://www.cs.fit.edu/~ryan/rose.html

The novel, The Name of The Rose by Umberto Eco ends with the phrase: "stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus." Eco explains this himself in Postcript to The Name of the Rose.
Since the publication of The Name of the Rose I have received a number of letters from readers who want to know the meaning of the final Latin hexameter, and why this hexameter inspired the book's title. I answer that the verse is from De contemptu mundi by Bernard of Morlay, a twelfth-century Benedictine, whose poem is a variation on the "ubi sunt" theme (most familiar in Villon's later "Mais ou sont les neiges d'antan"). But to the usual topos (the great of yesteryear, the once-famous cities, the lovely princesses: everything disappears into the void), Bernard adds that all these departed things leave (only, or at least) pure names behind them. I remember that Abelard used the example of the sentence "Nulla rosa est" to demonstrate how language can speak of both the nonexistent and the destroyed. And having said this, I leave the reader to arrive at his own conclusions.

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Note added at 1 hr 22 mins (2004-10-28 22:08:14 GMT)
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I just read Benstoik\'s answer; I definitely agree.

kaydee
Local time: 22:40
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

Greek

1855 days confidence:

"the rose remains in its true name - <though> we have <left with> bare names only

Explanation:
the translation of the phrase is an attempt to combine literal transl, poetic rhythm and interpretation according to understanding of its meaning in modern common terms

the secret maybe hidden in pristine topo:
adj. ancient, primitive; pure, immaculate; unrefined, unpolluted.
[babylon english]
adj. 1. completely free from dirt or contamination; "pristine mountain snow"; pure; 2. immaculately clean and unused; "handed her his pristine white handkerchief"; clean.
[wordnet]
(a.) Belonging to the earliest period or state; original; primitive; primeval; as, the pristine state of innocence; the pristine manners of a people; pristine vigor.
[webster]

if, in the given context, the topo reclines to {original, pure, immaculate, unpolluted} then the meaning of second part of the phrase is - in controversy, we stay with bare names - because our names were false, we have been living with "false names" of egos and superegos. and all what have left of us is either (as mentioned above) names only, nothing more, or bare names - naked, true, original names (the same topo defining group!).

next (or should it be the first) is the rose toponym to interpret:
i would not refer to dictionaries - like one in wikipedia "smartass" wars, the topo doesnt need academic reference rather having strong meaning in common sense. rose is a symbol of beauty and love. in midieval scholar terminology, it is symbol of the g-d = i-ts divine attribute. and in this meaning, bernard de morley put the word rose.

further interpretation is "while the rose - divine love - remains itself - greatest of all, pure and beautiful - we are shed all we thought meaningful, stripped of our social status, principles, beliefs - and become.." the reader is to read the last pages of the novel to accomplish the sentence. to my opinion, eco - or at least his hero - is spinozian kind of atheist)

ironic0n
Local time: 22:40
Native speaker of:

Russian,

Hebrew

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