лагерная пыль

English translation: Paradise Built on Bones/Paradise: Foundation - Human Dust

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Russian term or phrase:лагерная пыль
English translation:Paradise Built on Bones/Paradise: Foundation - Human Dust
Entered by: Montefiore

15:53 Nov 30, 2002
Russian to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary
Russian term or phrase: лагерная пыль
A news paper article headline: "Рай на лагерной пыли - репортаж из сверхсекретного города"

A line from the article: "Угроза о превращении в лагерную пыль. . . спускалась по служебным этажам."
Senya
Paradise Built on Bones/Paradize: Foundation - Human Dust
Explanation:
- a report from the super-classified city

Мне кажется, что это выражение передаёт смысл с надлежащей эмоцией. Так как нет ничего унылее и безнадёжнее представления о том, что этих людей уже нет, а на их костях дороги вымостили - Колымское шоссе. Кстати, когда я ездила с одной женщиной-адвокатом (Секретарём фирмы США) в Магадан и сказала, что Колымское шоссе, обледенелое такое в декабре, по которому мы сейчас едем, наверное вымощено костями заключённых, она заплакала.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-30 19:55:51 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Butugychag-is the darkest spot in history of Magadan, the history of GULAG. It\'s a huge system of concentration camps, located among the gloomy mountains with poor vegetation, just rocks and stones. Hard job of thousands and thousands of political convicts has dramatically changed the landscape: place, where once was a mountain now is just an endless fence of sharp rock peaks looking into the sky, steep walls of canyons pierced with the caves of mines, the ruins of stone barracks are everywhere around, most of them are still with barred rusty windows. The first impression is just like a huge army of archaeologists has dug out the ancient city here, up on Polar North. This city is not enjoyable to look at- but scary with it\'s silence of those fallen-apart walls and machine gun towers. It hits your imagination with these hand-made canyons and caves, hand-made with primitive tools by all those lost prisoners, mostly on winter time, with minus 50 outside and 200gr per day, if you are a good worker…who died would be simply buried deep in cave-mines…

Reaching 222km, we turn right and very soon we\'re in the first camp on a road-Lower Butugychag, further on are the ruins of barracks, pieces of wire, towers, rusted metal of barred windows. In some places the iron of mining equipment is still rusting under rains, snow and winds. The \"eyes\" of underground mines are blinded with bushes and grass.

Quite significant is the fact, that Butugychag is also so-called \"The Rose of the Northern winds\" On winter time the wind gets here up to 70 meters per second.

Two or three hour excursion is more than enough to feel \" on your skin \" the footprints of our dark history. Than we\'d rather get back in our time, where road runs through beautiful multi-color hills…road also built on human bones, but here it\'s not so much obvious.







--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-30 21:06:09 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry, misspelled \"paradise\" - consequences of too many toasts last night:)
Selected response from:

Montefiore
United States
Local time: 01:58
Grading comment
Many thanks to everyone! This is a tough issue that I deal with alot - properly rendering Russian newspaper headlines into English. The discussion that my question provoked shows that this can often be a pretty daunting task. I certainly appreciate all the input and points of view, and I thank you for helping me out. Now I've got to go tackle another headline - "Nu-ka Chaika, Otvechai-ka." That one ought to be fun.

Thanks again,
SC
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +5Paradise Built on Bones/Paradize: Foundation - Human Dust
Montefiore
4 +6См. ниже
Mark Vaintroub
4 +6A Paradise Behind Bars
Michael Tovbin
5 +3paradise built on human bones
myrafla
4 +4Gulag dust
Natalie
4 +3Gulag Paradise
Libero_Lang_Lab
5О смысле статьи - не для оценок и очков
Montefiore
4 +1Paradise in Gulag dust - Report from the super-secret city
Oleg Pashuk (X)
4Paradise build in human ashes
Oleg Pashuk (X)
4concentration camp's dust
tunturi
4dust of the camp
jerryk (X)
4 -1camp dust (ash)
Sanja Mihailovic
4 -1The Good Life in a Guilded Cage
Michael Tovbin


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


14 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
camp dust (ash)


Explanation:
Remainder after the camp fire made of wood

Sanja Mihailovic
Serbia
Local time: 10:58
Native speaker of: Native in SerbianSerbian, Native in Serbo-CroatSerbo-Croat

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Natalie: I'm afraid it's another kind of camp...
7 mins
  -> oh, ok... it seems I didn't recognize the right context... thanks ;)

disagree  Yuri Smirnov: It's sure another kind of camp...
55 mins
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

17 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +6
A Paradise Behind Bars


Explanation:
I would go direct on the second one considering that those words come directly from Beria.

"I will grind you into labor camp dust"

or something like:

"It's off to the camps for you next, where they will cut you down to size".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-30 19:26:42 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Mark:

The title of a newspaper article is supposed to attract attention not necessarily providing a summary of the article at the same time.

To understand what the article is about one would have to read it anyway whatever the title. My suggestion sounds authentic in English and is close enough to the content of the article to be acceptable. My suggested full title for the translation would be:


(A) Paradise Behind Bars: Reports from (Story of) A Town That Does Not Exist.


As far as the word Gulag is concerned, it is very well known even to those speakers of English that have not read Solzhenitsin. They may not know what the acronym stands for but they do know that it means a networked of forced labor camps.


    Reference: http://www.izvestia.ru/community/article25568
Michael Tovbin
United States
Local time: 03:58
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 1220

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Libero_Lang_Lab
5 mins

agree  Nikita Kobrin: Exactly. It's a metaphoric expression about the inmates of the Soviet labour camps meaning that they were just dust on our way to the radiant communist future...
11 mins

agree  nattash
4 hrs

agree  Montefiore: Теперь можно сказать, что этот вариант подойдёт - только "behind the barbed wire", по-моему
5 hrs
  -> Ну, спасибо. Только "behind barbed wire". Без артикля.

agree  zmejka
11 hrs

agree  Alexandra Tussing
1 day 1 hr
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

20 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +4
Gulag dust


Explanation:
Something like "the threat of grinding into gulag dust".

I suggest using the word "gulag" for лагерь: this word is widely used now in various contexts (please see examples).

Let us not dwell on the countless victims of Hanoi's Gulag. ...
www.newaus.com.au/news115kosovo.html

THE BURMESE GULAG For 34 years the people of Burma have been ruled by a ... they were marched at gunpoint to a shadeless, waterless stubble that is a dust bowl in ...
www.users.bigpond.com/nlevine/burma_gulag.htm

The grip of the Nigerian gulag: A detention diary.
www.mosopcanada.org/text/info/mosop0301.html

Natalie
Poland
Local time: 10:58
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 4172

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Nikita Kobrin
10 mins

agree  Mark Vaintroub
1 hr
  -> Спасибо, Марк. Судя по количеству ссылок в интернете, в применении даже не к России, а к другим странам, слово "гулаг" известно достаточно широко. Я бы не боялась его употребить.

agree  Larissa Boutrimova
6 hrs

agree  Alexandra Tussing
1 day 1 hr
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

24 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
Gulag Paradise


Explanation:
Michael's explanation is a good one. That is how I'd translate the headline though.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-30 16:25:00 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or Gulag Heaven (perhaps better I think)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-30 16:51:46 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Heaven-made in a human hell

I I were swapping my translator\'s hat for my sub-editor\'s hat - that is what the article would get called if I was editing it.

Libero_Lang_Lab
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:58
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 1214

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Nikita Kobrin: Paradise BUILT on Gulag Dust
9 mins
  -> Yes, but doesn't sound snappy enough for an English newspaper headline in my view. The Russian tendency to tell the whole story in the headline doesn't exist in English journalism

agree  Montefiore: I like your version, Dan - it's brief, and with that bitter irony, too, for those who associate Gulag with Hell only
3 hrs

agree  Vera Fluhr (X): Gulag-based Paradise ?
4 hrs

agree  Alexandra Tussing
1 day 1 hr
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

40 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
dust of the camp


Explanation:
"camp dust" is a little too curt and prosaic. It need have no poetic associations beyond its literal meaning. This is the phrase used to convey abysmal living conditions, death and decay.


Arafat - ... the head of Arafat.". "Maybe he didn't want to wipe his feet in the dust of the camp," said Tasir Jaber. "the Palestinian Authority ...
http://www.iap.org/newsmay14.htm


Untitled Document - ... The wild young man sits meditating on the fire. The dogs, denied the carcass, are slumped in the dust of the camp fringe. No one is having any dinner tonight. ...
http://www.froggy.com.au/phildoyle/anybody.html


The Dark Library - ... removing another few inches of skin. I was exhausted, the dust of the camp mixing unpleasantly with my blood. I was bleeding hard and ...
http://diabloii.net/tdl/stories/fulcrum11.shtml


Four Folktales From Morocco - ... He prostrated himself in the dust of the camp, and prayed for many hours, while his courtiers and imams gathered round and wondered. ...
http://www.iras.ucalgary.ca/~volk/sylvia/FolktalesMorocco.ht...


TrainServ - ... His tunic, too, I noted, was stained with the dust of the camp...I pressed my lips to his cup as I must, as a slave girl, and handed it to him. ...
http://www.geocities.com/natenkeely/Quotes/train-serve.html


perth paper revised 26.9.99 (RTF) - ... useful to speakers. Even so, users still want paper dictionaries that they can take away into the dust of the camp. In situations ...
http://nlp.stanford.edu/~manning/papers/eldic.rtf search within this site


Bibliografia - D'jakonov, V, Ja, lagernaja pyl', svidetel'stvuju… Zapisal Ju. Martynenko. Astrachan', Izd. "Forzac", 1996, 100 p. 1996, I, dust of the camp, give my evidence. ...
http://www.gulag-italia.it/w2d3/v3/view/feltrinelli/gulag/bi... =7


Essays and Other Writings - ... an old woman crouching down in unaccustomed supplication, or to see the children sitting quietly hour after hour in the oppressive heat and dust of the camp. ...
http://monkeyfist.com/ChomskyArchive/essays/visittolaos_html


Explore Gor - Clitus Vitellius and Judy Thornton - The Game - ... I took the cup and I filled it. His tunic, too, I noted, was stained with the dust of the camp. I looked at him, angrily over the brim of the cup. ...
http://www.chateauwhisper.com/~exploregor/explore/exploregor...





jerryk (X)
PRO pts in pair: 41
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +6
См. ниже


Explanation:
Есть в стилистике такое понятие - сильная позиция. К ней относят заголовок и первые слова (часто целое предложение, реже фразу). Сильная позиция несет в себе содержание, точнее общее понятие о содержании всего текста, статьи, книги и т.д. Понятно, например, что из названия "Ночевала тучка золотая" сложно уяснить о чем идет речь в книге. Но на то и правила, чтобы были исключения.

Теперь об ответ, данном Michel Tovbin - PARADISE BRHIND BARS. Красивый, броский заголовок. Но он не несет в себе содержания статьи. Если просто прочитать заголовок, то я бы воспринял его как рассказ о том, как хорошо (в прямом или переносном смысле) живется за решеткой. Не очень понятно из заголовка, что в статье пойдет рассказ о городе, построенном на десятках тысяч человеческих жизней - человеческой пыли.

Вариант Natalie - GULAG DUST. Это хорошо. Вот только одно маленькое сомнение: я не знаю куда пойдет перевод. Поэтому опять же вопрос: много ли рядовых англоговорящих обывателей знают это понятие ГУЛАГ (Государственное Управление Лагерями)? Если статья предназначена им, то боюсь, что нет. Хотя еще раз говорю, что этот вариант очень хорош и я бы остановился на нём.

Варианты ДЭНА - GULAG PARADISE, HEAVEN-MADE IN A HUMAN HELL Практически то же самое, что и у Michel Tovbin.

А вообще-то, я бы выбрал вариант НИКИТЫ - Paradise BUILT on Gulag Dust


Mark Vaintroub
Canada
Local time: 04:58
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 675

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Libero_Lang_Lab: i don't know if i agree with the choice, but it's nice to see some quality discussion and analysis of the choices provided
33 mins
  -> Thanx, DAN

agree  Interpreter (X): completely agree
34 mins
  -> Thanx

agree  Larissa Boutrimova: Very good comment
1 hr

agree  Montefiore
2 hrs

agree  Vera Fluhr (X): Не знаю как в Америке, а во Франции слово Goulag знают очень хорошо, наверное благодаря Солженицыну. Сталиские лагеря иначе даже и не называют. Мне тоже нравится Никитин вариант
3 hrs

agree  Alexandra Tussing
1 day 1 hr
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Paradise in Gulag dust - Report from the super-secret city


Explanation:
---

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-30 17:39:22 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Also:
Here is the site (in English) where you can find many facts about that era (including the origin of the term \"лагерная пыль\":

... the messenger.\" In fact, on 21 June 1941, Beria ordered four NKVD officials who
persisted in sending such reports to be \"ground into labor camp dust.\" 4. ...
www.jcpa.org/jl/vp450.htm



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-12-01 01:40:33 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Paradise in trail of tears.

Like American-Indian \"trail of tears\"

Oleg Pashuk (X)
PRO pts in pair: 619

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Libero_Lang_Lab: hmmmmm doesn't sound right to me
16 mins
  -> whatever...

agree  Montefiore: согласна с этим вариантом
3 hrs
  -> thank you
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
The Good Life in a Guilded Cage


Explanation:
use the guilded cage metaphor in some way. It is a pretty good fit for the content of the article.

Michael Tovbin
United States
Local time: 03:58
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 1220

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Montefiore: Guilded Cage metaphor - it's when someone is materially pampered but emotionally and otherwise imprisoned
12 mins
  -> Read the article, the reference to which is in my first answer, just for a change.

neutral  David Knowles: Just being pedantic: gilded
21 hrs
  -> You are right, of course.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +5
Paradise Built on Bones/Paradize: Foundation - Human Dust


Explanation:
- a report from the super-classified city

Мне кажется, что это выражение передаёт смысл с надлежащей эмоцией. Так как нет ничего унылее и безнадёжнее представления о том, что этих людей уже нет, а на их костях дороги вымостили - Колымское шоссе. Кстати, когда я ездила с одной женщиной-адвокатом (Секретарём фирмы США) в Магадан и сказала, что Колымское шоссе, обледенелое такое в декабре, по которому мы сейчас едем, наверное вымощено костями заключённых, она заплакала.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-30 19:55:51 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Butugychag-is the darkest spot in history of Magadan, the history of GULAG. It\'s a huge system of concentration camps, located among the gloomy mountains with poor vegetation, just rocks and stones. Hard job of thousands and thousands of political convicts has dramatically changed the landscape: place, where once was a mountain now is just an endless fence of sharp rock peaks looking into the sky, steep walls of canyons pierced with the caves of mines, the ruins of stone barracks are everywhere around, most of them are still with barred rusty windows. The first impression is just like a huge army of archaeologists has dug out the ancient city here, up on Polar North. This city is not enjoyable to look at- but scary with it\'s silence of those fallen-apart walls and machine gun towers. It hits your imagination with these hand-made canyons and caves, hand-made with primitive tools by all those lost prisoners, mostly on winter time, with minus 50 outside and 200gr per day, if you are a good worker…who died would be simply buried deep in cave-mines…

Reaching 222km, we turn right and very soon we\'re in the first camp on a road-Lower Butugychag, further on are the ruins of barracks, pieces of wire, towers, rusted metal of barred windows. In some places the iron of mining equipment is still rusting under rains, snow and winds. The \"eyes\" of underground mines are blinded with bushes and grass.

Quite significant is the fact, that Butugychag is also so-called \"The Rose of the Northern winds\" On winter time the wind gets here up to 70 meters per second.

Two or three hour excursion is more than enough to feel \" on your skin \" the footprints of our dark history. Than we\'d rather get back in our time, where road runs through beautiful multi-color hills…road also built on human bones, but here it\'s not so much obvious.







--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-30 21:06:09 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry, misspelled \"paradise\" - consequences of too many toasts last night:)

Montefiore
United States
Local time: 01:58
Native speaker of: Russian
PRO pts in pair: 312
Grading comment
Many thanks to everyone! This is a tough issue that I deal with alot - properly rendering Russian newspaper headlines into English. The discussion that my question provoked shows that this can often be a pretty daunting task. I certainly appreciate all the input and points of view, and I thank you for helping me out. Now I've got to go tackle another headline - "Nu-ka Chaika, Otvechai-ka." That one ought to be fun.

Thanks again,
SC

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Interpreter (X): оч. хорошо
55 mins
  -> оч. спасибо:)

agree  Vera Fluhr (X)
1 hr
  -> спасибо, Вера

agree  Oleg Pashuk (X)
2 hrs
  -> спасибо, Олег

agree  zmejka
7 hrs
  -> спасибо, Змейка:)

agree  Libero_Lang_Lab: the first option is a good'un
19 hrs
  -> Thanks, Dan:)
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
concentration camp's dust


Explanation:
... Even in the concentration camp's penal department Haag stays ... the fact that former
concentration camp prisoners ... Eine Handvoll Staub?? (A handful of dust). ...
members.aol.com/zbdachau/fates/eng/haag.htm

tunturi
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:58
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 70
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
О смысле статьи - не для оценок и очков


Explanation:
Михаил, спасибо за ссылку на статью. Контекст, как нам всем известно - это главное. Понимаю, почему Вы предложили метафору "guilded cage," и, действительно, так это можно воспринять, поскольку речь идёт о, видимо, хорошей (по понятиям журналиста и интервьюируемых) жизни в городе за колючей проволкой. Однако это только один аспект. Другой, как Марк выразился - сильная позиция статьи. И она-то состоит в том, что действительно-таки всё хорошо там, что жаль, что нет былого патриотизма и нельзя гордиться лучшим в мире методом обогащения урана.

Come on, typical "квасной патриотизм на костях" - вот какое название должно быть у статьи, да только автор её хочет передать ностальгию по старым добрым временам - нет слов у меня...

Так вот, у самого автора статьи нет ощущения "клетки", "несвободы" - он доволен тем, что другим показалось бы клеткой. Вот от этого надо плясать. Суть - передать намерение автора.

Наверное, заголовок Дэна подошёл бы в данном случае, а потом из содержания всё стало бы ясно всем.

Ещё раз прошу прощения, Михаил, за поспешность. Однако контекста не было. А статья интересная.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-11-30 22:04:32 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


К замечанию Михаила в ответ на моё согласие с его вариантом - ниже приведено вполне распространённое употребление определённого артикля \"the\":)))))

Americans Behind the Barbed Wire
World War Two Inside a German Prison Camp
by J. Frank Diggs


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-12-01 01:36:35 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Кстати о \"фактах\" - в США есть центрифужный метод обогащения урана, только он более безопасен - на маленьких центрифугах это делается. Жизнь человеческая здесь дороже мирового престижа (сомнительного), а вообще - чем гордиться, это ещё вопрос.

Montefiore
United States
Local time: 01:58
Native speaker of: Russian
PRO pts in pair: 312
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +3
paradise built on human bones


Explanation:
Интересные размышления выше. Перевод зависит от контекста. Сотру в лагерную пыль означает: will leave you rot in jail. В данном случае "рай за колючей проволокой" не очень годится, поскольку название статьи уходит в историчсекое прошлое, а в настоящее время там зэков - нет, народ - ученые и инженеры.

myrafla
Local time: 04:58
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 191

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Interpreter (X)
2 hrs
  -> thanks

agree  Libero_Lang_Lab
14 hrs
  -> спасибо

agree  Alexandra Tussing: also possible
17 hrs
  -> ok
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 day 7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Paradise build in human ashes


Explanation:
---

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-12-01 23:52:19 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or:
...from human ashes



Oleg Pashuk (X)
PRO pts in pair: 619
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)



Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs (or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.

KudoZ™ translation help

The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.


See also:

Your current localization setting

English

Select a language

Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search