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гражданин

English translation: Not for grading

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05:40 Mar 27, 2003
Russian to English translations [Non-PRO]
Art/Literary
Russian term or phrase: гражданин
"Мастер и Маргарита", первый абзац, первое предложение "...подошли два гражданина.."

English translation:Not for grading
Explanation:
I'd suggest you go to Amazon.com and check all four (four or five, I believe) translations: they all have the first few pages available on the site and, if my memory doesn't fail me, all have different versions of this phrase. :-)

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Note added at 2003-03-27 12:25:24 (GMT)
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Чтоб не быть голословной...

Перевод Diane Burgin:

two men appeared at Patriarch\'s ponds (See David\'s answer)

Перевод Мирры Гинзбург:

Two citizens appeared in the Patriarchs\' Ponds Park (see danya)

Перевод Michael Glenny:

two men were to be seen at Patriarch\'s Ponds

Но я помню, что их было четыре... :-(

Selected response from:

xxxElaine Freel
Local time: 17:48
Grading comment
Graded automatically based on peer agreement. KudoZ.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +8Not for gradingxxxElaine Freel
4 +6man
David Knowles
4 +4чтобы передать иронию, нужно прилагательное
Kirill Semenov
4 +3citizen
danya
3 +2patrial
Vents Villers
2 +1individualtunturi


  

Answers


18 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
citizen


Explanation:
ИМХО, чтобы передать специфику слова "гражданин" в 30-е в СССР, нужно перевести его буквально ( cf. как все пользуются словом comrade для придания "совьетской" окраски)

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Note added at 2003-03-27 12:05:01 (GMT)
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Дорогие товарищи, ну нельзя так с хорошей книгой.

Речь-то не о дословном переводе, а как раз о пресловутом колорите, неповторимой индивидуальности.
Если бы Булгаков хотел написать \"два человека\", он бы написал. Из той же эпохи: попробуйте переводить Зощенко, заменяя все советизмы на нейтральные по стилю слова.



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Note added at 2003-03-27 12:10:24 (GMT)
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да, и поймите правильно, дело не в том, что это моя версия, а в принципе

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Note added at 2003-03-28 07:05:23 (GMT)
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ещё раз к вопросу о переводе реалий: это принципиально;
не стоит называть сакуру вишней, а сакэ горiлкой.
И мы должны не подстраиваться под видение потенциального британского читателя, а попытаться передать систему образов и выразительных средств произведения доступными для его воприятия средствами, но не изменяя по возможности таковые по своей воле.

danya
Local time: 18:48
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 779

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Serge Vazhnenko: или two positive-thinking persons (как в анекдоте - "два оптимиста"... :-))
1 hr
  -> спасибо, а что за анекдот?

agree  ljilja: obyazatel'no grazhdanin, a ne chelovek, eto perevod, i v tekste ottenok ironii
5 hrs
  -> спасибо

agree  xxxxeni
10 hrs
  -> спасибо

neutral  David Knowles: I wondered about the irony, but I'm not sure it's translatable or worth a footnote.
10 hrs
  -> It is not exactly irony, or not irony only. It's also the flavour of the time and the book.
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +6
man


Explanation:
two men

The Russian use of the word "гражданин" simply does not match the English use of the word "citizen". There is no intention that the person in question is a person with all the legal rights of citizenship.

David Knowles
Local time: 16:48
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 4905

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Igor Kreknin
40 mins

agree  Wit: the Russian use is in the wake of the Feb Rev, with much the same colour then as in French after the great French Rev.; so "men" is probably the best choice without "local colour" which almost always spoils good literature
1 hr
  -> interesting - I hadn't realised the usage was taken from the French revolution.

agree  Lale
2 hrs

agree  annakh
3 hrs

agree  lyolya
4 hrs

agree  xxxJoeYeckley: In this case yes.
4 hrs

disagree  danya: too bland ( простота хуже воровства:-))
4 hrs

agree  xxxElaine Freel: I'm against blatant "exotics" -- citizens, sputniks, matryoshkas and such
4 hrs

agree  alla dunbar
4 hrs

disagree  Libero_Lang_Lab: I think you lose the realia of the world described and also Bulgakov's irony by being so prosaic
10 hrs

disagree  nattash: agree with Dan
13 hrs

agree  vovan: "two men" в полной мере подходит.
15 hrs

agree  Andrew Vdovin
20 hrs

disagree  Vents Villers: with Dan...
1 day8 hrs
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): +1
individual


Explanation:
-

tunturi
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:48
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 70

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  zmejka
10 hrs
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +8
Not for grading


Explanation:
I'd suggest you go to Amazon.com and check all four (four or five, I believe) translations: they all have the first few pages available on the site and, if my memory doesn't fail me, all have different versions of this phrase. :-)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-03-27 12:25:24 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Чтоб не быть голословной...

Перевод Diane Burgin:

two men appeared at Patriarch\'s ponds (See David\'s answer)

Перевод Мирры Гинзбург:

Two citizens appeared in the Patriarchs\' Ponds Park (see danya)

Перевод Michael Glenny:

two men were to be seen at Patriarch\'s Ponds

Но я помню, что их было четыре... :-(



xxxElaine Freel
Local time: 17:48
PRO pts in pair: 4
Grading comment
Graded automatically based on peer agreement. KudoZ.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Kirill Semenov
12 mins
  -> Спасибо!

agree  Wit
24 mins
  -> Thank you!

agree  protolmach
1 hr
  -> Thank you!

agree  uFO
3 hrs
  -> Thank you!

agree  xxxxeni
4 hrs
  -> Thanks

agree  Libero_Lang_Lab: I don't rate Glenny as a translator of Bulgakov
6 hrs
  -> Me neither :-))

agree  Сергей Лузан
2 days21 hrs
  -> Thank you

agree  Natalia Olshanskaya Robinson
3 days17 hrs
  -> Thank you
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8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +4
чтобы передать иронию, нужно прилагательное


Explanation:
men / citizens само по себе явно мало. Чтобы передать иронию (не просто "двое", а "два гражданина"), я бы добавил прилагательное:

decent, right-minded, square, м.б даже valuable citizens

Ну или какие еще бывают нынче в британском и американском варианте обозначения обывателя. :)

Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 18:48
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 3318

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxElaine Freel: You have a very good point here: гражданин here isn't part of a "Soviet setting", but part of Bulgakov's ironic narrative voice. The idea here should be to mimic this voice, not give an "honest" literal translation
2 hrs
  -> I hope bilinguals will find the adjective most fit into the context :) Thank you :)

agree  Libero_Lang_Lab: Bravo - Kirill - this is what I would suggest too. But I would probably opt for something like "At that point, two good/fine/upstanding (looking) citizens approached them...."
4 hrs
  -> thank you. :) What we need here now is a right adjective from native speakers -- to show these "citizens" were average, peaceful (not masked KGB agents) etc. That was exactly what I meant.

agree  Vents Villers: Skoree vsevo... :)
1 day2 hrs
  -> угумс :)

agree  Arianna Niero
3 days8 hrs
  -> спасибо :)
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1 day10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
patrial


Explanation:
multitran mne takoe vidal - ja tut ne pricom :)))

Vents Villers
Local time: 18:48
Native speaker of: Native in LatvianLatvian
PRO pts in pair: 20

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Kirill Semenov: patrials at Patriarch's ponds :) Nice consonance :)
32 mins
  -> Sposibo, kak raz o "Patriarch's ponds" ja i vspomnil :)

agree  xxxElaine Freel: Чешется опубликовать отдельным изданием наиболее оригинальные ответы Мультитрана...
1 day17 hrs
  -> :))) osobo v multitrane mne nravitsa perevod slova "nick" :)))
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