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хамство

English translation: brazen arrogance

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Russian term or phrase:хамство
English translation:brazen arrogance
Entered by: Antonina Zaitseva
Options:
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- Include in personal glossary

16:20 Dec 28, 2003
Russian to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary / soldiers' letters
Russian term or phrase: хамство
"Довольно терпеть этого хамства от Гитлера"

It seems like there is a fine line between using a word like "nastiness" or "rude behavior" that sounds absolutely inane and using something more profane that doesn't really reflect the register of the original. Help!

The war letters project (http://www.proz.com/topic/8139) is finally getting down to translating the letters we've received into English!

I'll be back soon with more questions.
Elizabeth Adams
United States
Local time: 09:43
Arrogance
Explanation:
-

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Note added at 2003-12-28 16:32:42 (GMT)
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Itґs a good question. I sugeest you this link:

http://dovlatov.km.ru/books/etoneper.html (ЭТО НЕПЕРЕВОДИМОЕ СЛОВО \"ХАМСТВО\")

You can see the opinion of a russian writer.
Selected response from:

Antonina Zaitseva
Ireland
Local time: 17:43
Grading comment
Graded automatically based on peer agreement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
3 +4Arrogance
Antonina Zaitseva
3 +3sorry, по-моему ...xxxsergey
5 +1rudenessxxxkire
4 +1boorishness
Montefiore
3 +2insolence
uFO
3 +2uncivilized behavior, thuggish behavior
David Knowles
5outrageAlexander Demyanov
5MufleriexxxAlex Zelkind
4BS or (mickey mouse) bullshit.Dorene Cornwell
4rave
Сергей Лузан
3 +1It's high time we stop tolerating what Hitler is doing to us
Yuri Smirnov
4vileness
William Stein
4 -1Here are some examples in support of Antonina Zaitseva's answer:xxxOleg Pashuk


Discussion entries: 3





  

Answers


5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
insolence


Explanation:
как вариант

uFO
South Korea
Local time: 13:43
PRO pts in pair: 52

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Rusinterp: thought of that, too
2 hrs

agree  Leah Aharoni: excellent
2 days 4 hrs
  -> thanx
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7 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +4
Arrogance


Explanation:
-

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-12-28 16:32:42 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Itґs a good question. I sugeest you this link:

http://dovlatov.km.ru/books/etoneper.html (ЭТО НЕПЕРЕВОДИМОЕ СЛОВО \"ХАМСТВО\")

You can see the opinion of a russian writer.


Antonina Zaitseva
Ireland
Local time: 17:43
Native speaker of: Native in BulgarianBulgarian, Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 35
Grading comment
Graded automatically based on peer agreement.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  manana: хамство - rudeness, but arrogance would be more appropriate in the text I guess...
33 mins
  -> Thanks, mn54

agree  xxxOleg Pashuk
1 hr
  -> Thank you, Oleg

agree  Vladimir Dubisskiy: Enough of that Hitler's arrogance!
2 hrs
  -> Thank you. "Enough of that Hitler's arrogance! "sounds Ok to me!

agree  GaryG
2 hrs
  -> Thank you, GaryG

agree  Rusinterp: quite possible because of the context
2 hrs
  -> Thank you, Alexandra

agree  mk_lab: Too mild as for me, but "хамство" is also too mild in this context.
3 hrs
  -> Thank you, mk_lab.

disagree  Dorene Cornwell: "Arrogance" sits wrong for me; I might say "brazenness" or "brazne thuggery" though.
12 hrs
  -> And why not "brazen arrogance" ?

disagree  Leah Aharoni: Dorene's suggestion is good
2 days 4 hrs
  -> The lack of shame (brazenness) is part of the meaning of "хамство" according to Dovlatov and хамство does not imply thuggery or violence. It's too mild.

agree  Natalia Olshanskaya Robinson
2 days 13 hrs

disagree  Montefiore: not arrogance at all - boorishness, rudeness
14 days
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10 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
хамство
It's high time we stop tolerating what Hitler is doing to us


Explanation:
Just an idea. Of course, this is not an absolutely academic word usage (choice) in the original. It depends on what you need - closer to the words or the ideas.

Yuri Smirnov
Local time: 20:43
Native speaker of: Native in BelarusianBelarusian, Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 922

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Dorene Cornwell: of Time to stop putting up with ....
12 hrs
  -> Thank you
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19 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
хамство
outrage


Explanation:
-

Alexander Demyanov
Local time: 12:43
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 1972
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55 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
хамство
vileness


Explanation:
or "villainy", but that sounds a bit archaic to my ear.

William Stein
Costa Rica
Local time: 11:43
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 320
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56 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
хамство
uncivilized behavior, thuggish behavior


Explanation:
two options, the first probably too polite! A relevant quote using "thuggishness" is given below.


    Reference: http://www.poliblogger.com/poliblog/archives/001634.html
David Knowles
Local time: 17:43
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 4905

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Dorene Cornwell: So "Time to stop putting up with Hitler's thuggery"
11 hrs

agree  xxxJoeYeckley: If the writer is being ironic, a too polite term may be just right.
11 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
rave


Explanation:
seems quite appropriate here IMHO. Why not to try 'boorishness or loutishness'? Good luck & HNY wishes, Elizabeth Adams!

Сергей Лузан
Russian Federation
Local time: 20:43
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 1276
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
sorry, по-моему ...


Explanation:
по-русски:
довольно этого хамства
или
довольно терпеть это хамство



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Note added at 2003-12-28 19:16:19 (GMT)
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может, если люди стреляли лучше, то слова
insolence (!)
arrogance
outrage
vileness (!)
etcetera - were not part of their vocabulary?


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Note added at 2003-12-28 19:52:57 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

\'bully\' comes to mind and its derivatives in this particular context considering \'substandard\' russian etc.

bully

1. A noisy, blustering fellow, more insolent than courageous; one who is threatening and quarrelsome; an insolent, tyrannical fellow.


1. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people.
2. A hired ruffian; a thug.

v. bulбlied, bulбlyбing, bulбlies
v. tr.

1. To treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner. See Synonyms at intimidate.
2. To make (one\'s way) aggressively.


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Note added at 2003-12-28 20:01:06 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Through bullying, Hitler received the alliance of Romania,
Hungary, Slovakea, Yugoslavia, and Bulgaria in 1941. The Axis ...
www.houseofice.com/history/hitler.shtml

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-12-28 20:05:17 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

... In hindsight, one is open-mouthed at the success of Hitler\'s bullying which allowed
him to annex Austria and dismantle Czechoslovakia without firing a shot. ...
www.best-book-price.co.uk/ compare-book-price-code-0099421763.html

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-12-28 20:08:12 (GMT)
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\'we\'ve had enough of hitler\'s bullying tactics\'
?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-12-28 20:10:45 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A leading member of Schroeder\'s party, former Defense Minister Rudolf Scharping, was quoted in the New York Times as saying that Bush wanted to overthrow Saddam to please \"a powerful—perhaps overly powerful—Jewish lobby\"-which is what most European politicians think, but don\'t like a German saying so. And finally, Schroeder\'s Justice Minister Herta Daeubler-Gmelin famously compared Mr. Bush\'s approach to the problem of Iraq with Adolf Hitler\'s bullying tactics.
http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/News/Trifkovic/NewsST09240...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-12-28 20:12:21 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

will that do?

xxxsergey
Local time: 17:43
PRO pts in pair: 324

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  xxxOleg Pashuk: and, in English?
14 mins
  -> надо подумать

agree  Vladimir Dubisskiy: это письма - не всегда люди писали грамотно (наверное, стреляли лучше)
1 hr
  -> мне тоже так подумалось, что усложняет весь перевод - это вам не какой-то теперь стандартный русский

neutral  Rusinterp: ну положим, а перевести?
1 hr
  -> сейчас подумаю

agree  xxxkire: bully is quite appropriate in this kind of letter
9 hrs
  -> 1941? или еще до войны с Россией? зверства еще не начались, все воспринимается как хамство?

agree  Montefiore: bully is a good version
6 days
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
Here are some examples in support of Antonina Zaitseva's answer:


Explanation:
Subj: The BAWLI Papers No.
... There was Adolf Hitler's arrogance and claim of Aryan supremacy, reflected in his
arrogance toward the Jews - the severity of which was only partly understood ...
www.cyberboxingzone.com/bawli/bawli18.txt - 23k - Cached - Similar pages

[W-politics] Plans [...] Altered After Victims' Families' Pleas
... But Hitler failed the IQ tests > at every opportunity, drastically overestimating
his strength and > Hitler's arrogance and bad luck had the biggest impact on ...
two.pairlist.net/pipermail/w-politics/ 20020903/008191.html - 5k - Cached - Similar pages

The Battle of Britain and Operation Sea lion
... Hitler's arrogance and impatience would come back to haunt him later in the war. ... Yet
again Hitler's arrogance got in the way of sound military planning. ...
www.geocities.com/t_stainforth/england.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages

Why Did Germany Lose the Second World War?
... attack the Soviet Union. Hitler's arrogance and impatience would come
back to haunt him again later in the war. At first he assumed ...
www.geocities.com/t_stainforth/Main.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages



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Note added at 2003-12-29 18:21:24 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

\"arrogance\" is the best choice for this context.

xxxOleg Pashuk
PRO pts in pair: 619

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Leah Aharoni: There is no question that Hitler was arrogant, but this is immaterial in this specific case.
2 days 2 hrs

disagree  Montefiore: agree with Leah
14 days
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
Muflerie


Explanation:
The word in french which has the same meaning as russian "хамство"



xxxAlex Zelkind
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 103
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12 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
BS or (mickey mouse) bullshit.


Explanation:
In this context, I would not necessarily hesitate just to say "BS."

Time to stop putting up with BS / thuggery from Hitler

Dorene Cornwell
Local time: 09:43
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in pair: 830

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  xxxOleg Pashuk: I don't think this guy, who studying to be a political officer, would say that.
13 hrs
  -> Actually, in English he would certainly say BS or some synonym rather than the full term

agree  uFO
15 hrs

neutral  xxxkire: there's similar terms in Russian. The fact that the guy didn't use them shows he didn't want to.
21 hrs

neutral  Montefiore: not quite conveys the meaning
14 days
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13 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
rudeness


Explanation:
Actually the word хамство is used here somewhat unexpectedly, it is not the word people would normally use writing about Hitler and I do not think it was used ironically. My impression is that the man/woman who wrote the letter was not used to express his/her thoughts and certainly never realized that somebody would read his letters 60 years later. There are probably some grammar mistakes in those letters and some words are used in a very specific sense, just like хамство here. And this is what makes those letters so valuable. That is why I think it is necessary to leave the same word that the author used - and that is "rudeness".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs 47 mins (2003-12-29 15:08:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think it is necessary to preserve the author\'s style here. Any substitute will change it, maybe even improve the style from our point of view, but I don\'t think the goal is to make the style better. The goal is to let people read exactly what soldiers were writing in their personal letters with all little imperfections and flaws of their own style.

xxxkire
PRO pts in pair: 71

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxsergey: да, "хамство" - странно-слабое слово в сочетании с Гитлером - звучит типа - Вы, Гитлер, какой-то хам, усааатый и прааативный. Даастал уже.
4 hrs
  -> хотя автор и не иронизирует... Лучше оставить как есть, ведь это слово - авторский стиль.
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6 days   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
хамство
boorishness


Explanation:
I thought "hamstvo" meant "being boorish," being a boor. Literally so. I think it's not context-dependent. The word "hamstvo" was used in a very emotional way, as many Russians prised 'culture" and "refined-ness" highly. Still do. Hitler was 'fresh," "boorish," too unbelievable to be taken seriously. He certainly didn't fit the Russian ideas of greatness, or those of a great man. The Russians for a long time couldn't comprehend how such an upstart could have risen/could have been elevated to such fantasmagoric heights...

Montefiore
United States
Local time: 09:43
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 312

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxkire: that's the word!
7 days
  -> thank you, kire:) I think so, too:) ought to be a no-brainer
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