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объекты и субъекты управления

English translation: Managerial authorities [and subordinates]

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07:58 Dec 17, 2001
Russian to English translations [PRO]
Bus/Financial
Russian term or phrase: объекты и субъекты управления
This is from a text defining business processes and areas of responsibility with a certain company.

Управление представляет собой процесс оказания управленческих воздействий на субъекта управления на объект управления для достижения долгосрочных целей.

Please suggest anything readable that could bring the idea across to the target English-speaking readership.
Vladimir Pochinov
Russian Federation
Local time: 02:01
English translation:Managerial authorities [and subordinates]
Explanation:
This is classic Soviet-ese! The trick is to say something--anything--that approximates the meaning without reducing the outcome to total jibberish.

One must imagine that the writer intended something other than elucidating the reader in the concept of management, e.g.:

"Management is the process through which the Company's managerial bodies and executives exercise their authority to achieve certain long-term objectives."

I think that the author intended to emphasize that this particular Company's management practice is not simply a rote exercise in bossing people around, but rather is a concerted effort toward a specific goal:

"The Company's management policies and efforts focus on certain well-defined long-term objectives."

This works especially well as an introductory sentence if the author goes on to list those objectives.

Suggestion: translate this sentence last!
Selected response from:

Benjamin Franchi
Grading comment
Thank you, Benjamin. And special compliments to Tagir and James who were quite helpful. I wish I had 12 KudoZ points to share between the three of you :)

This excerpt was taken from the in-house document defining the distribution of authority between the executive bodies and senior officers of a British company wholly owned by a Russian company. This document was drafted by the parent company, translated by one of my younger colleagues and sent over to the UK for review and signature. The British managing director refused to accept this document on the grounds that he did not understand the meaning of several parts. Resultingly, the English version ended up in my lap, to be edited. Luckily, I managed to get it across to the original authors that a definition like "управление представляет собой процесс оказания управленческих воздействий на..." does not get us anywhere in understanding the concept of management.

Thanks again to everybody who got involved in this arm-long forum. I hope I will have a chance to bail some of you out one of these days.

Take care,
Vladimir
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +2(controlling) agents and objects (of control)
ttagir
4 +2Managerial authorities [and subordinates]Benjamin Franchi
4 +2managing entities/managed entities
Liv Bliss
5 +1controllable object
James Walker
4agents and objects
James Walker
4objects and agents of managementAYP
4managers/subordinatesShila
4Something like that:xxxH.A.
4the process of management of management subjects by a managing body
Sergei Rioumin
3Ну что же, попробуем...
Data
3Ну что же, попробуем...
Data


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


21 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
Ну что же, попробуем...


Explanation:
Не претендую на абсолютную истину, но с этого можно начать дискуссию:

Management is a process of exerting control action on behalf of the manager upon the managed person in order to attain long-term goals.

Data
PRO pts in pair: 16
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21 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
Ну что же, попробуем...


Explanation:
Не претендую на абсолютную истину, но с этого можно начать дискуссию:

Management is a process of exerting control action on behalf of the manager upon the managed person in order to attain long-term goals.

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Note added at 2001-12-17 08:21:30 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

OOOPS! Прощу прощения за повтор.

Data
PRO pts in pair: 16
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
the process of management of management subjects by a managing body


Explanation:
I presume it can be applied to business entities only, though.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2001-12-17 10:12:06 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

sorry, it should be "managing of management subjects by a management body"...

Sergei Rioumin
Australia
Local time: 11:01
PRO pts in pair: 44
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
controllable object


Explanation:
It is a very interesting problem. Obviously, in a business context управление is "management." But in a technical context, to which I am more accustomed, управление is "control," and I believe that the technical meaning is not totally irrelevant here.

In this context, I often refer to Теория управления. Терминология (Наука, 1988). The very first definition in this slim volume is Объект управления - controlled object; controllable object. Объект для достижения желаемых результатов функционирования которых необходимы специально организированные воздействия. Perhaps the author of the sentence in question is familiar with теория управления?

Here is another definition: Управляющее воздействие - controlling action. Воздействие на объект управления предназначенное для достижения цели управления. Unfortunately, there is no definition here of субъект управления.

So, taking all of this into account, here is my admittedly biased and possibly unnecessarily awkward suggestion:

Management is the process of a management decision-maker's application of controlling actions to a controllable object in order to achieve long-term goals.

It's all subjective. Good luck!

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Note added at 2001-12-17 14:57:29 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The principles and practices of administration of
engineering and science activities, including nature of management, organization, planning
controlling action and measuring results, management of human resources, communication,
decision making, etc.

James Walker
Local time: 19:01
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in pair: 54

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Rusinterp: interesting
4 hrs
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
managing entities/managed entities


Explanation:
Boy, this is a circular definition if ever I saw one. One of the key points, though, is that объект and субъект can be animate or INanimate items, no?

So... "Management is a process wherein the managing entity acts upon the managed entity in order to achieve long-term goals."

OK, colleagues -- have at it! I'm sure there's plenty of room for improvement.

Liv Bliss
Local time: 16:01
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Rusinterp: i like this
4 hrs

agree  Tatiana Dolinina: This is the most readable and very accurate
1 day 13 hrs
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Something like that:


Explanation:
exercising of managerial authority over subordinates to achieve defined long-term objective

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2001-12-17 14:57:36 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

was going to say: read the dic but to no avail

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2001-12-17 17:12:47 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I did not mean you to read, I meant that I have read and re-read and re-read the management dictionary and could not find anything inspiring enough for this particular challenge.

Does anybody else experience problems with reading and/or typing Cyrillic these days? It drives me crazy...


    read Int'l Dic of Management...
xxxH.A.
PRO pts in pair: 56
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9 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
Managerial authorities [and subordinates]


Explanation:
This is classic Soviet-ese! The trick is to say something--anything--that approximates the meaning without reducing the outcome to total jibberish.

One must imagine that the writer intended something other than elucidating the reader in the concept of management, e.g.:

"Management is the process through which the Company's managerial bodies and executives exercise their authority to achieve certain long-term objectives."

I think that the author intended to emphasize that this particular Company's management practice is not simply a rote exercise in bossing people around, but rather is a concerted effort toward a specific goal:

"The Company's management policies and efforts focus on certain well-defined long-term objectives."

This works especially well as an introductory sentence if the author goes on to list those objectives.

Suggestion: translate this sentence last!


    Experience
Benjamin Franchi
PRO pts in pair: 33
Grading comment
Thank you, Benjamin. And special compliments to Tagir and James who were quite helpful. I wish I had 12 KudoZ points to share between the three of you :)

This excerpt was taken from the in-house document defining the distribution of authority between the executive bodies and senior officers of a British company wholly owned by a Russian company. This document was drafted by the parent company, translated by one of my younger colleagues and sent over to the UK for review and signature. The British managing director refused to accept this document on the grounds that he did not understand the meaning of several parts. Resultingly, the English version ended up in my lap, to be edited. Luckily, I managed to get it across to the original authors that a definition like "управление представляет собой процесс оказания управленческих воздействий на..." does not get us anywhere in understanding the concept of management.

Thanks again to everybody who got involved in this arm-long forum. I hope I will have a chance to bail some of you out one of these days.

Take care,
Vladimir

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Rusinterp: (smile)
1 hr

agree  ttagir: good suggestion!
5 hrs
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14 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
managers/subordinates


Explanation:
...is a process wherein the managers exert influence on the subordinates to achieve long-term goals.

Shila
United States
Local time: 19:01
PRO pts in pair: 4
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14 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
(controlling) agents and objects (of control)


Explanation:
Похоже, что товарищи списали-с,... похоже с lits.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000AprJun/0399.html или чего-то там подобного. Определений такого рода на английском можно найти море на странийах, посвященных теории управдения (control theory) в математическом и экономическом понимании этих терминов.
Вообще говоря субъект\объект переводится как "Agent-Object"
...A Behavioral Interface to Simulate Agent-Object Interactions ...see ligwww.epfl.ch/
~thalmann/papers.dir/CA99smobj.pdf
Т.е. субъекты управления это control agents, controlling agents. А, ессно, объекты управления это objects (of control). При формулировании мыслей по-английски не следует использовать одно и то же слово дважды или писать на русский манер навроде: "весло лодки является частью механизма движения лодки":-))).

Yours,
Tagir.

ttagir
Local time: 03:01
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian, Native in TatarTatar
PRO pts in pair: 492

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  James Walker: "Agent-object" is good.
12 hrs

agree  Rusinterp: could be
19 hrs
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21 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
objects and agents of management


Explanation:
Management is a process of rendering of administrative influences of the agent of management upon the object of management to long-term goals achievement.

AYP
Local time: 02:01
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 90
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2 days 7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
agents and objects


Explanation:
I have been trying to resist being drawn further into this discussion, because the problem is very deep and there is no easy way out. But since I have a little free time today, my efforts appear to be unsuccessful.

What a great word (new to me) bafflegab is! But I fail to see why the Russian bafflegab is inferior to the English bafflegab of the very creative suggested translations. In fact, a minute or two spent with various dictionaries shows the Russian to be philosophically quite rigorous, particularly since we now know that the text goes on to define объекты управления and even chart процесс управления.

Perhaps my theory of translation is overly influenced by a technical background, or maybe I am just not a very creative writer. In any case, I like to say what the source text says as nearly as possible and still make good sense. I can only imagine that the author of this particular Russian text meant to express some specific concept and apparently did so with reasonable skill, judging from the two sentences we have seen. I understand the need to put his words into readable English. I do not understand the need to hammer his concept into some American business philosophy (unless, of course, that is what the client is paying you to do, in which case you are acting not so much as a translator, but rather a propagandist in the best sense). To put it quite bluntly, I believe that to throw away the terms in question is entirely the wrong approach.

Of course, that leaves a host of choices with various pros and cons for each individual word. As I said, it's all subjective, and that's what we are paid to do as translators: make choices. Otherwise the machines will take our jobs.

So, one more time. Borrowing Tagir's "agent-object" which seems absolutely apt to me, and given the fact that the text goes on to explain itself in detail, I would say, "Management is the process of agents acting on objects in order to achieve long-term goals."

Thank you for posting such an interesting question. I look forward to seeing your solution, whatever it may be.


James Walker
Local time: 19:01
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in pair: 54
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