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сословно-представительский

English translation: class representative body

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Russian term or phrase:сословно-представительский
English translation:class representative body
Entered by: Yuliya Panas
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13:18 Aug 9, 2006
Russian to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - Government / Politics / Democracy
Russian term or phrase: сословно-представительский
сословно-представительский орган
Yuliya Panas
Local time: 20:25
class representative body
Explanation:
Presumably some sort of administration or legislature representing the interests of a particular social class.
Selected response from:

Jack Doughty
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:25
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +5class representative body
Jack Doughty
4 +2body of estate representationOlga Klymenko
2 +1bodies representing the different estates of the realm
Libero_Lang_Lab


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +5
class representative body


Explanation:
Presumably some sort of administration or legislature representing the interests of a particular social class.

Jack Doughty
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:25
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 148

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Alexander Demyanov: Perfect explanation,. I wonder, though, if it should be called "social group rep. body". Nowadays, authors seem to be shy of the word "class" in the meaning. Supposedly, the 1st world "democracies" have done away w/classes.
10 mins
  -> Thanks. I'm not shy! "Class" is OK by me, even if, as one version of "The Red Flag" puts it: "The working class can kiss my a***, I've got the foreman's job at last!"

disagree  Dmitry Golovin: I beleive the term is a historic one and refers to the types of parliaments that exsited in medieval times
30 mins
  -> So what? In the Middle Ages they had such bodies representing the nobility, the clergy, the gentry etc., so I think my definition still fits.

agree  abc def
1 hr
  -> Thank you.

agree  Yuri Geifman: exactly
1 hr
  -> Thank you.

agree  Zamira*****
1 hr
  -> Thank you.

neutral  Olga Klymenko: I would use " estates" rather than "classes", especially for Russia before 1905
1 hr
  -> Possibly. It was not apparent to what period this referred (usual complaint, not enough context).

agree  Vladimir Dubisskiy: there were classes AND (social groups). 'Soslovie' is not a class, but a group. Context implies it represents various social groups (and prob.classes)
4 hrs
  -> Thank you.

agree  Levan Namoradze
22 hrs
  -> Thank you.
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2 days22 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): +1
bodies representing the different estates of the realm


Explanation:
This would work more as an explanatory note than a translation, but it would avoid the "class" problem, and would make use of the term "estate" in a way that is less ambiguous....

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Note added at 2 days22 hrs (2006-08-12 11:49:55 GMT)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Estate

Libero_Lang_Lab
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:25
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 3

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Dmitry Golovin: Solomon solution!
7 hrs

neutral  Olga Klymenko: Why "the different", though - why not just "different' of "the"? (In continuation of my previous request:)
1 day15 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
body of estate representation


Explanation:
"Soslovie" (estate) is not the same as "klass" (class). Parliaments before the 19th centure were the representaive bodies (assemblies) for estate, not class, representation (think of the French revolution, the "third estate" - the bourgeoisie) by contrast with contemporary parliaments - legislatures - based on the priciple of "rep by pop" - teritorially based representation by population. Before the 19th century (the industrial revolution) it would not be politically (and academically) correct to speak about classes in Europe (except, may be, England), estates is the word.




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Note added at 1 hr (2006-08-09 15:16:52 GMT)
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or "assembly for estate representation"

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Note added at 1 day1 hr (2006-08-10 14:51:16 GMT)
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What about "estates representation" - what the native speakers say?
I believe the passage below explains clearly what I mean:

Louis XVI, however, did not assume the role of leadership as the delegates had expected, and soon a constitutional stalemate over the issue of whether to vote in terms of whole estates or as individuals, pitted the deputies of the nobility (the Second Estate) against the deputies of the commons (the Third Estate). A growing sense of urgency loomed at Versailles, the location of the meeting of the Estates General, until on June 17, 1789 the deputies of the Third Estate declared themselves and whoever would join them the 'National Assembly,' in which each deputy would vote as individuals. This declaration effectively marked the beginning of the French Revolution. Two days later the clergy (the First Estate) voted to join the deputies of the Third Estate in the National Assembly. The symbolic beginning of the French Revolution, however, did not occur until nearly a month later when Louis ordered thousands of soldiers to march on Paris. Popular reaction to this move, led to the arming of the common people in Paris, and attacks upon the places where grain or arms were thought to be stored. On July 14, 1789, an armed crowd marched on the Bastille, a fortified prison that symbolized royal authority. Soon after the National Assembly issued the first constitution of the revolution which abolished 'feudalism' and the many privileges that members of the First and Second Estates formally had, replacing the absolute monarchy with a parliamentary-style constitutional monarchy. Next, they issued the 'Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen' outlining the rights that they hoped their new government would protect.
( see http://dl.lib.brown.edu/napoleon/time1.html)

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Note added at 4 days (2006-08-14 03:39:08 GMT)
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Here is an entry from the Oxford Dictionary of the Renaissance, suggesting "representation by estates":

Estate or (Latin) status or (Dutch) staat or (French) état or (German) stand or (Italian) stato. In the political sphere the term ‘estate’ denoted a class or order that participated in government either directly or through its representatives. The system of representation through estates arose in Europe in the thirteenth century, and remained in place until it was displaced by popular representation; the French Revolution precipitated the end of representation by estates in France (though the last assembly had been convened in 1614), but Navarre maintained representation by estates till 1828, Hungary till 1848, Sweden till 1866, and the duchy of Mecklenburg till 1918.

Societies were traditionally divided into three classes according to whether they prayed, fought, or laboured. In England, for example, Edmund Dudley, president of the King's Council under Henry VII, divided society into ‘clergy, chivalry and commonalty’ (Tree of Commonwealth, 1509). The most important formulation of the tripartite division of society is contained in the Traité des ordres et simples dignités (Paris, 1610) of the French jurist Charles Loyseau (1566–1627). The contention that the estates were the central feature of early modern society is reflected in the use of the term Ständestaat by German historians.



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Note added at 4 days (2006-08-14 03:43:31 GMT)
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"Estate" The Oxford Dictionary of the Renaissance. Gordon Campbell. Oxford University Press, 2003. University of Toronto Libraries. 14 August 2006 <http://www.oxfordreference.com.myaccess.library.utoronto.ca/...


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Note added at 4 days (2006-08-14 03:51:56 GMT)
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Encyclopedia of Enlightenment also has an article on Corporate and Estate Organization (below) that makes me wonder whether "estate representation" is more confusing than "estate representation"? It should not be in appropriate context.

Corporations and estates were as fundamental and important to European social and political life of the eighteenth century as currency to trade or as words to language. As part of the structure of everyday existence, corporations and estates could be found everywhere. There were notable geographic variations, but on the Continent all citizens belonged to one of three estates—the clergy, the nobility, or the residual “common” category of the third estate (which in some places was further subdivided into peasants and burghers). In each of the three estates, moreover, the vast majority belonged to other groups or institutions that were also organized along corporate lines. Nobles might belong to a law court, the Knights of Malta, or some other chivalric order; clergy might practice their vocation in convents, monasteries, or universities; craftsmen of the third estate generally belonged to trade guilds such as, for example, the butchers or hatters; other commoners, with greater resources and social pretensions, might belong to corporations of professionals (lawyers or surgeons), state-sponsored cultural institutions (academies of science, art, or dance), or administrative agencies (as tax collectors, notaries, judges, or police). One's place of residence also implied a relationship to, and formal representation in, yet another form of corporate body...Jay M. Smith "Corporate and Estate Organization" Encyclopedia of the Enlightenment. Ed. Alan Charles Kors. Oxford University Press 2003. University of Toronto Libraries. 14 August 2006 <http://www.oxfordreference.com.myaccess.library.utoronto.ca/...



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Note added at 4 days (2006-08-14 03:54:30 GMT)
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And, finally, on estates,

Sociological usage of the term dates back to Ferdinand Tönnies's distinction between estates and classes (or ‘communal’ and ‘societal’ collectivities). In Economy and Society (1922) Max Weber cites the estates of medieval Europe as paradigmatic examples of status groups. In the same vein, T. H. Marshall defined an estate as ‘a group of people having the same status, in the sense in which that word is used by lawyers. A status in this sense is a position to which is attached a bundle of rights and duties, privileges and obligations, legal capacities or incapacities, which are publicly recognized and which can be defined and enforced by public authority and in many cases by courts of law’ (‘The Nature and Determinants of Social Status’, in Class, Citizenship, and Social Development, 1964). However, like most of the other main sociological concepts for studying systems of stratification, that of estate is a matter of some dispute.

"estate" A Dictionary of Sociology. John Scott and Gordon Marshall. Oxford University Press 2005. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. University of Toronto Libraries. 14 August 2006 <http://www.oxfordreference.com.myaccess.library.utoronto.ca/...



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Note added at 4 days (2006-08-14 04:15:56 GMT)
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And, finally, for those who can't help thinking of representative assemblies:), here is more on these obscure relics of history:)

Representative Assemblies Appearing in the 13th c., representative assemblies were, throughout Western Christendom in the 14th and 15th cc., the scene of dialogue between the prince and the community. Princes had always asked assemblies for help and advice. In the 13th c. these feudal courts were enlarged to accept townsmen. But the novelty was that these townsmen were elected and sat as representatives of their towns. In the same way, elected representatives of the clergy and the knights sat alongside prelates and barons. From now on we find these meetings of delegates of the three “estates” of society (clergy, nobility, middle class), whence the name given them: “assembly of the three estates” (for the first time in Burgundy, late 13th c.) or “estates”, in France and nearly everywhere else. In England the word “ Parliament” appeared in this sense in 1236 and prevailed, while in France this word was reserved for courts of justice. The Empire kept the old words “Diet” or Landtag and Reichstag. Arising from the pressure of circumstances, representative assemblies appealed to certain concepts and principles derived from Roman law or canon law. Taken from Rome and from private law, the principle “Quod omnes tangit ab omnibus approbari debet [what concerns all must be approved by all]”, generally admitted from the late 13th c., was the basis of taxation by consent. That of the “major et sanior pars[greater and wiser part]” helped them to get away from insistence on unanimity and define a majority by counting voices. The progress of procuration with full powers, admitted in courts in the 12th c. and in Church institutions in the 13th, aided the functioning of representative assemblies when the delegates received a mandate from their electors allowing them to pledge themselves in their name. The Church, with its chapters of religious orders, synods and councils, provided models. .....I t.d. i t.p....
Françoise Autrand "Representative Assemblies" Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages. Ed. André Vauchez. © 2001 by James Clarke & Co. Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages (e-reference edition). Distributed by Oxford University Press. University of Toronto Libraries. 14 August 2006 http://www.oxfordreference.com.myaccess.library.utoronto.ca/...









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Note added at 4 days (2006-08-14 04:33:47 GMT)
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Or just "Estate assembly" - my final word:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_of_Kortenberg
Estates-General Of 1789 Estate Assembly Estates-general Estates
Estates-General Of 1789 Estate Assembly Estates-general Estates Economy.
www.economicexpert.com/a/Estates:General:of:1789.htm - 18k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages


On the Commissions of the Estates in Prussia by Karl Marx
In an assembly of naturalists it is not sufficient to share in the “general property” of an intelligent being, but in an estate assembly it is sufficient to ...
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1842/12/10.htm - 41k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

CHAPTER IV
For the first time, the idea of an Estate Assembly was replaced with that of an elected Chamber in accordance with European norms. ...
www.crvp.org/book/Series04/IVA-22/chapter_iv.htm - 61k - Cached - Similar pages





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Note added at 4 days (2006-08-14 04:40:52 GMT)
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[PDF] Cultural Traditions and the Scandinavian Social Policy ModelFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
In Sweden, the ancient assembly evolved into the estate assembly in the ... kings summoned the estate assembly with the intention of raising taxation ...
www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1467-9515.2005....

Chapter 19: A History of Spain and Portugal, vol. 2... which stipulated for Spain a legislature composed of a lifetime appointive senate and a three-estate assembly--clergy, nobility, and commons--in part ...
libro.uca.edu/payne2/payne19.htm

"Civil Society and Social Capital in Comparative Perspective ...Legal framework, state action, corporative organization, state authority (the bureaucracy), the estate assembly or legislature, and public opinion all play ...
arts-sciences.cua.edu/pol/faculty/foley/beyond_t.htm

[PDF] The Price of Unification: The Emergence of Health & Welfare Policy ...File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
In 1843 the Rhenish provincial estate assembly appealed to the legislature to grant them the. possibility of placing newcomers seeking employment under the ...
phoenixtn.net/catania2005/papers_original/FritzDross_Germany_20050531/FritzDross_Germany_20050531.pdf





    Reference: http://www.ashgate.com/subject_area/downloads/Journal_abstra...
Olga Klymenko
Local time: 13:25
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in UkrainianUkrainian, Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Dmitry Golovin
1 hr
  -> Thank you, Dmitry!

agree  Vladimir Dubisskiy: estate representative assembly (if it's really about Russia and before 1905. Mind, that it can easily be, say, Sri Lanka or Iran or Iraq today.
3 hrs
  -> Thank you, Vladimir! It can indeed easily be any place where they have the system of estates:). As to Sri Lanka or Iraq, the problem there is not with representation for estates but with power-sharing among different ethnic/religious groups, not estates.

neutral  Libero_Lang_Lab: given that this is basically a made-up term - and there's nothing wrong with that per se - it's got to be clear. "estate representation" would, to most ears i'd venture, suggest a piece of landed property and not estate in the sense of 3rd, 4th estate etc
15 hrs
  -> Daniel, I would appreciate if you suggest a better wording for this term; the idea is to give representation to representatives of different estates, but primarily the bourgeoisie, hence the body or assembly for estate (based) representation.
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