trisca

English translation: rustic dance

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Spanish term or phrase:trisca
English translation:rustic dance
Entered by: Charles Davis

20:18 May 27, 2018
Spanish to English translations [PRO]
Music / Guitar
Spanish term or phrase: trisca
This appears in a brief history of the guitar.
All suggestions are welcome.
Thank you.
sumire
United States
rustic dance (?) // merriment, celebration
Explanation:
See my answer to your question on "corpulento laúd".
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/music/6517846-...

This is the end of the same line:

""El corpudo laud que tiene punto a la trisca", which James T. Monroe translated as "The portly lute accompanies a rustic dance". So apparently Monroe, a great expert on the text, thinks "trisca" means a rustic dance.

In modern Spanish, "trisca" means a loud noise:

"1. f. Ruido que se hace con los pies en una cosa que se quebranta.
2. f. Bulla, algazara o estruendo."
http://dle.rae.es/?id=aiTwlnv

But that doesn't mean that it meant that in the fourteenth century when this was written. The notes to the Clásicos Castellanos edition of the Libro de buen amor, from which this comes, say that trisca means "regocijo" here. So "merriment" or "celebration".
https://books.google.es/books?id=AQ5QRqSLG4MC&pg=PT598&lpg=P...

It's worth noting that John Stevens, in his Spanish-English dictionary of 1706, says that as well as meaning the noise of treading on nutshells, trisca is "us'd also for a Jest or Banter".
Consulted through http://buscon.rae.es/ntlle/SrvltGUIMenuNtlle?cmd=Lema&sec=1....

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2018-05-27 21:47:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

With great respect to Monroe, I think "merriment" or "celebration" is probably the right meaning.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2018-05-28 00:09:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

As Chema says, the word "trisca" impllies a noisy, joyful celebration. Julio Cejador y Frauja, in his glossary of medieval Spanish, defines it as "dancing, leaping, merriment".

However, I've also found another interpretation of the word as it's used in this line from the Libro de buen amor, which supports Monroe's translation of "rustic dance". In his history of dance (Viaje a través de la historia de la danza), José Rafael Vilar suggests that trisca is a variant of tresca, and refers to a lively and very popular medieval dance called treske, which comes from Old German dreskan, and means stamping your feet on the floor. Those who can read Spanish will find details here:
https://books.google.es/books?id=Z8CA7VM4eIoC&pg=PA48

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2018-05-28 00:14:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I'm now inclined to think that this interpretation of a treske dance is quite plausible; "tiene punto a" does imply providing the rhythm, and a musical instrument is likely to be providing the rhythm for a dance rather than just a general celebration.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2018-05-28 00:25:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

More on treske: it's mentioned in a late-thirteenth-century French play by Adam de la Halle called Le jeu de Robin et Marion:

"Que je te voi si bien baler.
Or voeil jou le treske mener"

"Marion calls upon the company to dance a treske, a chain dance, probably similar to the later farandole, and asks Robin to lead it. [...] There are many visual representations of medieval dancers weaving their way through streets and market places, holding hands in a long chain. [...] The treske or farandole represents the ultimate social dance that can involve every member of the community, young and old alike. There are no steps to learn and it can be walked, skipped or run depending on the energy or dignity of the participants."
The Routledge Research Companion to Early Drama and Performance, 156
https://books.google.es/books?id=iCIlDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA156

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2018-05-28 00:26:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Then again, some seventeenth-century Spanish-French dictionaries give "hand-clapping" as a meaning of trisca.
Selected response from:

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 22:38
Grading comment
Thank you so much.
You are of great help to me.
Also, I’d like to thank you all for helping me on this.
Muchas gracias!

4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +2rustic dance (?) // merriment, celebration
Charles Davis
3 +1noisy jubilation [bulla, algarabía]
Chema Nieto Castañón
4crushing/overwhelming/extremely loud/powerful noise
Barbara Cochran, MFA


Discussion entries: 17





  

Answers


30 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
crushing/overwhelming/extremely loud/powerful noise


Explanation:
Libro De Consultación: Collins Robert Unabridged Spanish/English Dictionary

Almost as if it hurts to listen to it (crush the eardrums).

Barbara Cochran, MFA
United States
Local time: 16:38
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 10
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you.

Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
rustic dance (?) // merriment, celebration


Explanation:
See my answer to your question on "corpulento laúd".
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/music/6517846-...

This is the end of the same line:

""El corpudo laud que tiene punto a la trisca", which James T. Monroe translated as "The portly lute accompanies a rustic dance". So apparently Monroe, a great expert on the text, thinks "trisca" means a rustic dance.

In modern Spanish, "trisca" means a loud noise:

"1. f. Ruido que se hace con los pies en una cosa que se quebranta.
2. f. Bulla, algazara o estruendo."
http://dle.rae.es/?id=aiTwlnv

But that doesn't mean that it meant that in the fourteenth century when this was written. The notes to the Clásicos Castellanos edition of the Libro de buen amor, from which this comes, say that trisca means "regocijo" here. So "merriment" or "celebration".
https://books.google.es/books?id=AQ5QRqSLG4MC&pg=PT598&lpg=P...

It's worth noting that John Stevens, in his Spanish-English dictionary of 1706, says that as well as meaning the noise of treading on nutshells, trisca is "us'd also for a Jest or Banter".
Consulted through http://buscon.rae.es/ntlle/SrvltGUIMenuNtlle?cmd=Lema&sec=1....

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2018-05-27 21:47:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

With great respect to Monroe, I think "merriment" or "celebration" is probably the right meaning.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2018-05-28 00:09:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

As Chema says, the word "trisca" impllies a noisy, joyful celebration. Julio Cejador y Frauja, in his glossary of medieval Spanish, defines it as "dancing, leaping, merriment".

However, I've also found another interpretation of the word as it's used in this line from the Libro de buen amor, which supports Monroe's translation of "rustic dance". In his history of dance (Viaje a través de la historia de la danza), José Rafael Vilar suggests that trisca is a variant of tresca, and refers to a lively and very popular medieval dance called treske, which comes from Old German dreskan, and means stamping your feet on the floor. Those who can read Spanish will find details here:
https://books.google.es/books?id=Z8CA7VM4eIoC&pg=PA48

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2018-05-28 00:14:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I'm now inclined to think that this interpretation of a treske dance is quite plausible; "tiene punto a" does imply providing the rhythm, and a musical instrument is likely to be providing the rhythm for a dance rather than just a general celebration.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2018-05-28 00:25:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

More on treske: it's mentioned in a late-thirteenth-century French play by Adam de la Halle called Le jeu de Robin et Marion:

"Que je te voi si bien baler.
Or voeil jou le treske mener"

"Marion calls upon the company to dance a treske, a chain dance, probably similar to the later farandole, and asks Robin to lead it. [...] There are many visual representations of medieval dancers weaving their way through streets and market places, holding hands in a long chain. [...] The treske or farandole represents the ultimate social dance that can involve every member of the community, young and old alike. There are no steps to learn and it can be walked, skipped or run depending on the energy or dignity of the participants."
The Routledge Research Companion to Early Drama and Performance, 156
https://books.google.es/books?id=iCIlDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA156

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2018-05-28 00:26:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Then again, some seventeenth-century Spanish-French dictionaries give "hand-clapping" as a meaning of trisca.

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 22:38
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 208
Grading comment
Thank you so much.
You are of great help to me.
Also, I’d like to thank you all for helping me on this.
Muchas gracias!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Chema Nieto Castañón: Hi Charles; I have just seen your answer! As you suggest, the idea of trisca here is that of "celebration", and particularly so a "noisy, joyful celebration" as one with music and dances and playful laughs...
2 hrs
  -> Many thanks, Chema :-) Cejador, Vocabulario medieval castellano, gives "bailoteo, saltos, regocijo" ( https://books.google.es/books?id=xxxpjE2eWtsC&pg=PA395 ): "boisterous" expresses it. But it might be treske (a dance); I'll add a note.

agree  Andy Watkinson: So perhaps it's best I refrain from suggesting it refers to cabras triscando por los montes...?
4 hrs
  -> Don't let me stop you if you feel like it :) Thanks, Andy!
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
noisy jubilation [bulla, algarabía]


Explanation:
El original procede del Libro del Buen Amor (del siglo XIV). Por ejemplo aquí
Allí sale gritando la guitarra morisca
de las voces aguda y de los puntos arisca;
el corpudo laúd, que tiene punto a la trisca;
la guitarra latina con estos se aprisca.

https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://w...


El sentido de la frase en cuestión (el corpudo laúd, que tiene punto a la trisca) lo encontramos, por ejemplo, aquí;
.. el voluminoso laúd que da ritmo a la trisca
https://books.google.es/books?id=MTleLv81KpUC&pg=PA103&lpg=P...

Y el sentido de trisca en este caso, debemos leerlo como bulla o algarabía más que como simple estruendo; for example, a noisy jubilation.

... that gives rhythm to the noisy jubilation.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2018-05-27 23:46:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

La idea del laúd dando ritmo a la algarabía apunta al sentido festivo de trisca en tanto que celebración bullanguera, una fiesta en toda regla, ruidosa e informal, donde tocan los músicos y baila y canta y habla y ríe la gente en derredor.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2018-05-28 01:23:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


Racket

En el bellísimo diccionario de Rosal, de 1611, aparece
"Trisca y Triscar, de Trice y Tricari, Latino. Sino es como Terisca, de Terere, que es Trillar, por la confusión y vocería de los veranos, y trillas en las eras del pan, donde se acostumbran burlas y pullas."

Y en el de 1706 de Stevens, traduce Trisca del Covarrubias; "The noise of treading on any brittle thing, as Glass (...)". Y añade, "us'd also for a Jest or Banter". Triscar "To toy, to triffle, to make such a noise as of treading on Glass (...)"

En el Diccionario de Autoridades de 1739 aparece básicamente como ruido;
El ruido, que se hace con los pies en alguna cosa, que se quebranta: como avellanas, nueces, &c. Y por extensión se dice de otra qualquier bulla, ò estruendo. Covarr. juzga se dixo del mismo sonido por la figura Onomatopéya, ò de la voz Griega Trismos, que significa estridor. Lat. Crepitus, us. Strepitus. SOLD. PIND. lib. 1. §. 11. Sentía sumamente, que entre otras triscas, y burlas le dixessen, que su muger le habia parido un hijo blanco. ALFAR. part. 2. lib. 1. cap. 4. Llegandose adonde yo estaba con mucha grita, y trisca, haciendo grande ruido.

El sentido básico aquí sería el de bulla en tanto que ruido de mucha gente junta, hablando y gritando entre bromas y confusión. Poner ritmo a la algarabía, al bullicio. En contexto, parece razonable interpretarlo como alusión a una fiesta; el "gordo" laúd que da ritmo al bullicio de la fiesta, que pone orden y concierto;
The portly lute that gives rhythm to the boisterous celebration
O más literalmente tal vez,
The portly lute that gives rhythm to the racket

En cuanto a treske/tresque, no he encontrado referencias de época en los diccionarios aludidos -lo que no significa que no se utilizase como tal- aunque resultaría extraña la confusión de la grafía en el original castellano (me refiero a utilizar trisca en vez de tresque).


Chema Nieto Castañón
Spain
Local time: 22:38
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in SpanishSpanish
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks for your help, much appreciated.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  neilmac
5 hrs
  -> Thanks neilmac!
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