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También, por consiguiente, de clase.

English translation: see (two possible readings, 1st more likely)

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11:13 Nov 29, 2008
Spanish to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - History / Religion and Gender
Spanish term or phrase: También, por consiguiente, de clase.
SPAIN: In my opinion, this author's idiosyncratic style sometimes verges on incoherence (but It's not my native tongue). I have no idea what she is trying to say at the end here:
" El asunto no era nuevo, pero sí la modalidad. Si los argumentos usados por conocidos moralistas nacían de la soberbia femenina –otra vez excesos- manifiesta al intentar enmendar la obra del Creador, y se habían centrado en el rechazo, sobre todo, de los afeites en el rostro o al excesivo ornato, la segunda mitad del XVII lo ratificaría, pero insistiría en los cambios que la moda aportaban al ya colmado “saco” de las tentaciones. Parecía evidente en mundos tan sensuales como el Barroco la necesidad perentoria de tratados como éstos. Recogían, además, todo un listado de reglas, órdenes y normativas ya dictadas por pontífices y obispos relacionadas con la apariencia, del mismo modo que recordaba –moral de status- que no en todos los grupos, ni en todos los sectores, las modas representaban excesos semejantes. No valía entonces únicamente una moral de género. ***También, por consiguiente, de clase. *** "
neilmac
Spain
Local time: 10:27
English translation:see (two possible readings, 1st more likely)
Explanation:
Hi Neil,

I'm not surprised you're confused. There are two ways to read this:

1. The author should not have done is use "por consiguiente", at least not where it's placed in your text (whether or not 'por consiguiente' is proper usage is another issue).

The por consiguiente should be in front of "No valía entonces...", because the statement the consequence refers to is the one before, where it says "–moral de status- que no en todos los grupos, ni en todos los sectores, las modas representaban excesos semejantes".

After reading in full, I think that what the author basically means is that gender-based ethics - or morality, whichever term you're using - were not enough. Class-based ones were also needed.


2. If he had meant to say that gender-based ethics were not enough, and neither were calssed-based ethics, then the "También" should clearly have been a "Tampoco". I don't think this is the case, but if your text goes on to say that, rather than the above, both were needed in combination, then it's the También that's misused.

If this helps you clarify the idea, I don't think you'll have any problem translating it.

Good luck!

Álvaro :O)
Selected response from:

moken
Local time: 09:27
Grading comment
Thanks again everybody :-) I can't wait to finish this 17th C tosh and get back to my software manuals...
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
3 +5see (two possible readings, 1st more likely)
moken
3 +2gender and also, consequently, class moralityBubo Coromandus
4...represented not just (only) a gender, but also a consequent class morality (ethic)
Richard Boulter
4also due to class
telefpro


  

Answers


12 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
gender and also, consequently, class morality


Explanation:
I think possibly you have to remove the full stop after género

Bubo Coromandus
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 82

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
1 min
  -> many thanks Bea, hope you're enjoying your weekend :-) Deb

agree  EllieMonteiro
2 mins
  -> many thanks Elizabeth, happy weekend! :-) Deborah
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13 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
also due to class


Explanation:
It is not solely a moral of gender .......

telefpro
Local time: 13:57
Native speaker of: Native in PortuguesePortuguese, Native in EnglishEnglish
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45 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +5
see (two possible readings, 1st more likely)


Explanation:
Hi Neil,

I'm not surprised you're confused. There are two ways to read this:

1. The author should not have done is use "por consiguiente", at least not where it's placed in your text (whether or not 'por consiguiente' is proper usage is another issue).

The por consiguiente should be in front of "No valía entonces...", because the statement the consequence refers to is the one before, where it says "–moral de status- que no en todos los grupos, ni en todos los sectores, las modas representaban excesos semejantes".

After reading in full, I think that what the author basically means is that gender-based ethics - or morality, whichever term you're using - were not enough. Class-based ones were also needed.


2. If he had meant to say that gender-based ethics were not enough, and neither were calssed-based ethics, then the "También" should clearly have been a "Tampoco". I don't think this is the case, but if your text goes on to say that, rather than the above, both were needed in combination, then it's the También that's misused.

If this helps you clarify the idea, I don't think you'll have any problem translating it.

Good luck!

Álvaro :O)


moken
Local time: 09:27
Native speaker of: Spanish
PRO pts in category: 60
Grading comment
Thanks again everybody :-) I can't wait to finish this 17th C tosh and get back to my software manuals...
Notes to answerer
Asker: Hmm - I hadn't thought of using ethics instead of morality, nice idea, Al :-)


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Richard Boulter
12 mins

agree  Carol Gullidge: with option 2: I think también should have been tampoco, relating to the "No valia..."
23 mins
  -> Hi & thks Carol. Could be, but I doubt it. The paragraph explains how the approach changed in the 17th C. Gender-based approaches were no longer enough: now class-based ethics were also needed. 1. Lends more sense to the bit before. :O) :O)

agree  María T. Vargas
44 mins

agree  N. Hewitt: I lean towards the 2nd idea - tambien should be tampoco. But certainly difficult to know for sure.
1 hr
  -> Thanks Nathanael. Hopefully, Neil's context might clarify the issue for him. :O)

agree  Mónica Sauza
3 hrs
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48 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
...represented not just (only) a gender, but also a consequent class morality (ethic)


Explanation:
The thing is that in Spanish one can separate the 'aside' of class-ethics into a separate sentence following a period (full-stop). In English that does not make sense, besides being ungramatical as an incomplete sentence. This is my take on the source text, which I agree could be better-written. This is not Carlos Fuentes, right?

Translation is fun, is it not? Best of luck

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 57 mins (2008-11-29 12:10:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I also agree that there are at least two interpretations of the meaning intended in the source text. The other is amply illuminated by our able colleague, Alvaro.
Regards, All.

Richard Boulter
United States
Local time: 02:27
Native speaker of: English
Notes to answerer
Asker: Don't know C Fuentes but it's not by him. The author has a haphazard miz of styles which combined with the archaisms makes this text a nightmare. At least I had a long deadline!

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