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Does this make sense?

English translation: I believe there's a comma that shouldn't be there

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14:25 Dec 3, 2003
Spanish to English translations [PRO]
/ Tourism and heritage
Spanish term or phrase: Does this make sense?
Maybe it's just me, but I can't see how the last clause fits into this sentence:

La “sostenibilidad” como objetivo de una política de oferta turística, tendente a la irrenunciable rentabilización económica, ha de poder conjugarse de manera equilibrada y mutuamente beneficiosa con los valores y necesidades del ámbito ciudadano, del que el patrimonio forma parte, en el que adquiere su pleno sentido y donde se integra con un sentido de “convivencia”, de los ciudadanos con su entorno y del turismo como diálogo cultural.

Any ideas?
Lorna O'Donoghue
Local time: 04:43
English translation:I believe there's a comma that shouldn't be there
Explanation:
after "convivencia". In the phrase:

...del ámbito ciudadano, del que el patrimonio forma parte, en el que adquiere su pleno sentido y donde se integra con un sentido de “convivencia”, de los ciudadanos con su entorno y del turismo como diálogo cultural.

everything talks about the ámbito ciudadano (del que el patrimonio etc, en el que se adquiere etc, y donde se integra etc.). I think what is most reasonable is that the following phrase be not separated by the comma, but as follows:

y donde se integra con un sentido de "convivencia" de los ciudadanos con su entorno etc.


HOPE THIS HELPS OUT! GOOD LUCK!

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Note added at 2003-12-03 16:18:37 (GMT)
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Sustainability, as the goal of a policy focused on tourism, which tends toward an unrenounceable profitableness, should be able to be combined in a balanced and mutually beneficial way with the values and needs of the citizenry, of which national resources are a part, in which it achieves total meaning and into which it is integrated along with a sense of \"coexistence\" of the citizens toward their environment and with tourism as cultural dialogue.

THIS IS WHAT I MEANT WAS TO BE INTERPRETED LEAVING THE COMMA OUT. GOOD LUCK!
Selected response from:

Ivannia Garcia
Local time: 22:43
Grading comment
Many thanks to all!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +5I believe there's a comma that shouldn't be there
Ivannia Garcia
5no coma after CIUDADANO, no coma after CONVIVENCIA...asun
3 +2No, it doesn't make sense
Ari Nuncio
4 +1sostenibilidad NO!!! usa Sustentacion adicionalmete la coma despues deisaac bekerman
52 sentencesJane Lamb-Ruiz


  

Answers


7 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
2 sentences


Explanation:
La “sostenibilidad” como objetivo de una política
1) de oferta turística, tendente a la irrenunciable rentabilización económica, ha de poder conjugarse de manera equilibrada y mutuamente beneficiosa con los valores y necesidades del ámbito ciudadano. ,
2) del que el patrimonio forma parte, en el que adquiere su pleno sentido y donde se integra con un sentido de “convivencia”, de los ciudadanos con su entorno y del turismo como diálogo cultural.

1) Sustainability as the target of a policy of tourist offerings or deals etc.
2) Sustainability as the target of a policy which includes heritage...

Do you see how DEL QUE goes with the sentence now?

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Note added at 2003-12-03 14:36:01 (GMT)
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TIP: try to break down the Spanish sentences in their constituent parts...in fact these parallel constructions are sometimes hard to break down but that usually gets one on the right track...:)

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Note added at 2003-12-03 14:39:10 (GMT)
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More structure:

1) Sustainability etc must be combined with ...values and necessities of the local inhabitants.
2) second sentence: Sustainability must also be combined with etc.

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Note added at 2003-12-03 14:44:34 (GMT)
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Lastly, I think that oferta touristica should be

tourist offerings...it\'s being used in business now...for services...instead of say product...

tourist offerings..

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Note added at 2003-12-03 15:29:20 (GMT)
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Ivannia is right...I misread the comma....



Jane Lamb-Ruiz
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in pair: 7709
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10 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +5
I believe there's a comma that shouldn't be there


Explanation:
after "convivencia". In the phrase:

...del ámbito ciudadano, del que el patrimonio forma parte, en el que adquiere su pleno sentido y donde se integra con un sentido de “convivencia”, de los ciudadanos con su entorno y del turismo como diálogo cultural.

everything talks about the ámbito ciudadano (del que el patrimonio etc, en el que se adquiere etc, y donde se integra etc.). I think what is most reasonable is that the following phrase be not separated by the comma, but as follows:

y donde se integra con un sentido de "convivencia" de los ciudadanos con su entorno etc.


HOPE THIS HELPS OUT! GOOD LUCK!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-12-03 16:18:37 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sustainability, as the goal of a policy focused on tourism, which tends toward an unrenounceable profitableness, should be able to be combined in a balanced and mutually beneficial way with the values and needs of the citizenry, of which national resources are a part, in which it achieves total meaning and into which it is integrated along with a sense of \"coexistence\" of the citizens toward their environment and with tourism as cultural dialogue.

THIS IS WHAT I MEANT WAS TO BE INTERPRETED LEAVING THE COMMA OUT. GOOD LUCK!


Ivannia Garcia
Local time: 22:43
Native speaker of: Native in SpanishSpanish
PRO pts in pair: 332
Grading comment
Many thanks to all!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Gilbert Ashley
7 mins
  -> gracias Gilbert! :))

agree  xxxElena Sgarbo: Right.
31 mins
  -> tks, Elena! ;)

agree  Mariana Solanet
37 mins

agree  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: your right, but she still won't be able to translate if you are not more specific...
51 mins

agree  margaret caulfield: The last comma throws us off the track!
1 day 14 hrs
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40 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
sostenibilidad NO!!! usa Sustentacion adicionalmete la coma despues de


Explanation:
convivencia no debe estar

espero que te ayude

isaac bekerman
United States
Local time: 23:43
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in SpanishSpanish
PRO pts in pair: 19

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Mariana Solanet: creo que quizo decir sustentabilidad, de todos modos la redacción es espantosa!!!!
10 mins

neutral  agtranslat: IMO, sostenibilidad is perfectly all right in this context. To be sure, sustentabilidad is equally found on the web. Anyway, according to the DRAE the antonym of insostenible is sustentable, so the jury seems to be out on this.
22 hrs
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54 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
No, it doesn't make sense


Explanation:
The problem with Third Sector writing, especially in Spanish, is that it is plagued with jargon and officious gobbledygook. If language experts (i.e., you, me and the other people who have tried to answer your question) can't make heads or tails of this sentence, who can?

The reason I now routinely reject jobs from NGOs is that they seem to be intent on obscuring meaning, and the rate I have to charge for untangling such text is prohibitive. Having said that, I understand that you're in the middle of this mess and are probably exhausted after slogging through phrase after phrase of nonsense. Here's my understanding of the real meaning behind the sentence in question:

"The notion of ‘sustainability’ in tourism tends to emphasize profitability, whereas the emphasis should be on the values and needs of the people who live in the area that is being promoted. Sustainable tourism is viable only if it includes a mutually beneficial exchange with potential caretakers (that is, with the citizens who must make a living from local resources)."

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Note added at 2003-12-03 15:27:01 (GMT)
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By the way, \"heritage\" is out of place here, at least as far I\'m concerned. \"Patrimonio\" has many shades of meanings. Translating it with a single word in English is usually futile.

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Note added at 2003-12-03 15:31:01 (GMT)
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I would correct the second sentence in my example to say: \"Tourism is only sustainable if it includes...\"

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Note added at 2003-12-03 15:53:24 (GMT)
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Jane: My \'lecture\' is an attempt to answer the question, \"Does this make sense?\" In the full-length version of this speech, which I\'ll spare you, I explore what translators should do when the texts we receive are poorly written.

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Note added at 2003-12-03 16:48:53 (GMT)
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Now that we\'re on a roll, I urge you to consult the IPG Handbook on Environmental Funds (unfortunately, I can\'t provide an address, but it can\'t be that hard to find on the Web). The following excerpt from the handbook may help clarify what your writer is trying to say:

• Economic models must take into account environmental costs and the value of ecosystem services.
• The capacity of all groups, public and private, involved with the use, study, regulation, enforcement, and conservation of biodiversity should be permanently strengthened and promoted.
• Public awareness and environmental education should be promoted at all levels and sectors of society.

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Note added at 2003-12-03 17:05:04 (GMT)
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I found the address: http://biodiversityeconomics.org/pdf/topics-222-00.pdf

Ari Nuncio
United States
Local time: 22:43
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 90

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: NGOs are with the UN; this could be a regular non-profit...NGOs are ONLY UN and I find your lecture out of place here
10 mins
  -> Wrong. See "What is a Non-Governmental Organization?" by Professor Peter Willetts, City University, London at http://www.staff.city.ac.uk/p.willetts/CS-NTWKS/NGO-ART.HTM. - NGO may have started as a UN term, but is no longer exclusive...

agree  cebice
10 mins
  -> Thanks, cebice. Jargon busters, unite!

agree  PB Trans: You are 100% correct. NGO's are not only with the UN. I know, I was employed at 2 NGOs...
9 hrs
  -> Thanks, Pina. Seems I got someone's dander up.
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
no coma after CIUDADANO, no coma after CONVIVENCIA...


Explanation:
It's really a long hard sentence, but linked by means of preposition, coma are not necessary.
Only my point of view...

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Note added at 2 hrs 29 mins (2003-12-03 16:55:30 GMT)
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And \" sostenibilidad\" YES , spanish business loves those kind of words...

asun
Spain
Local time: 05:43
Native speaker of: Native in SpanishSpanish, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in pair: 50

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  agtranslat: About the commas, in Spanish, they are also inserted to allow the reader to catch his breath. Also for solemnity, or pomposity, if you like, as they serve as cues for pauses.
2 hrs
  -> Yes, of cours, the commas are here for this purposes but everything in its due time. I thinks there are not well located there. Only my opinion...
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