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use of "that"

English translation: the business model that designers participate in building

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Spanish term or phrase:el modelo de negocio del cual participan los diseñadores
English translation:the business model that designers participate in building
Entered by: María Eugenia Wachtendorff
Options:
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21:06 Jul 23, 2005
Spanish to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature / Industrial design
Spanish term or phrase: use of "that"
ORIGINAL:
Al igual que el telescopio – en su época - amplió nuestra conciencia, permitiéndonos tener un contacto directo con el universo y el microscopio develó un invisible mundo viviente, hasta entonces oculto a la vista, la tecnología digital al posibilitar la incorporación del usuario al proceso de diseño, transformará el modelo de negocio del cual participan los diseñadores y modificará profundamente el cómo son formados o educados, y el cómo trabajamos e interactuamos.

MY VERSION:
Just like the advent of the telescope expanded our consciousness by enabling us to directly explore the universe, and the microscope unveiled a whole living world, so digital technology - by incorporating users into the design process - will transform the business model **that** designers participate in, and will deeply alter the way they are educated and trained, as well their work and interaction.

Mi eterno problema: ¿sobra el "that"?
¡Gracias!
María Eugenia Wachtendorff
Chile
Local time: 16:52
that is fine
Explanation:
Suggestion for you

Just as the advent of the telescope expanded our consciousness by enabling us to directly explore the universe and the microscope unveiled what had been until then an invisible living world, so too will digital technology - by incorporating users into the design process - transform the business model that designers particpate in building [or help to build]. It will also change profoundly their education, training, work and interaction.

the "that" is fine...here's the style rule though: English sentences should have parallelism in their construction. It's best not to mix passive and active in the same sentence. Likewise, when the sentence is too long, it's best to make two sentences.

Question re the Spanish: el como son formados?

That smacks of English..the way they are trained..I mean in Spanish can't you just say..como son formados? rather than "el como"???

cheers, HTH :)



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Note added at 19 mins (2005-07-23 21:25:37 GMT)
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so that is OK: business model designer participate in building OR
help to build...



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Note added at 19 mins (2005-07-23 21:26:17 GMT)
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PS: I congratulate you on the use of the dashes..within the sentence. Great!
Selected response from:

Jane Lamb-Ruiz
Grading comment
Thanks for the "in building" part! The idea is that designers create a business model in conjunction with professionals from a variety of disciplines.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +1"in which the designers participate"
George Rabel
5that is fineJane Lamb-Ruiz
4sobra
Heidi C


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


13 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
"in which the designers participate"


Explanation:
But I would just say "used by designers"

and, you are missing the word "as" in "as well as how they work amnd interact".

George Rabel
Local time: 15:52
Native speaker of: Spanish
PRO pts in category: 83

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Raúl Waldman
53 mins
  -> Gracias, Raúl
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

17 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
use of
that is fine


Explanation:
Suggestion for you

Just as the advent of the telescope expanded our consciousness by enabling us to directly explore the universe and the microscope unveiled what had been until then an invisible living world, so too will digital technology - by incorporating users into the design process - transform the business model that designers particpate in building [or help to build]. It will also change profoundly their education, training, work and interaction.

the "that" is fine...here's the style rule though: English sentences should have parallelism in their construction. It's best not to mix passive and active in the same sentence. Likewise, when the sentence is too long, it's best to make two sentences.

Question re the Spanish: el como son formados?

That smacks of English..the way they are trained..I mean in Spanish can't you just say..como son formados? rather than "el como"???

cheers, HTH :)



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 mins (2005-07-23 21:25:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

so that is OK: business model designer participate in building OR
help to build...



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 mins (2005-07-23 21:26:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

PS: I congratulate you on the use of the dashes..within the sentence. Great!

Jane Lamb-Ruiz
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in category: 44
Grading comment
Thanks for the "in building" part! The idea is that designers create a business model in conjunction with professionals from a variety of disciplines.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

7 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
that
sobra


Explanation:
en mi opinión, sale sobrando, se entiende perfectamente "the business model designers participate in"

traté de encontrarte una explicación...

creo que el participate *in* es lo que te evita el that?

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Note added at 13 mins (2005-07-23 21:20:16 GMT)
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ya encontré!

The Oxford Combined Dictionary of Current English and Modern English Usage pg282

ellipsis of that: Both the relative adverb and the relative pronoun that are sometimes omitted, at lest in speech. As to the adverb, At the speed he was going he could not stop and It happened on the day we first met are good colloquial English. As to the pronoun, this is very frequently omitted when it is the object of a defining clause. \'In the spoken language (says Onions) the tendency is to omit the relative as much as possible, and to prefer (eg) The book I am reading to The book that I am reading. In the written language, he adds, its omission is often felt to be undignifies\'; but this feeling is probably not so strong now as it may once have been.

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Note added at 31 mins (2005-07-23 21:37:36 GMT)
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en realidad el uso de that queda a gusto del consumidor, aunque yo pienso que \"less is more\"

nota aparte: también faltó el \"invisible\" en lo del microscopio

Heidi C
Local time: 15:52
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in SpanishSpanish
PRO pts in category: 23
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