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Explanation: Here's what's led me to this. In these situations you're always weighing one consideration against another. The decision is a matter of priorities.
1. I think it's very desirable, if possible, to use adjectives. The original is a succession of pairs of adjectives and it would be nice to emulate the almost hypnotic enumerative effect of this. If you change to nouns for this pair it interrupts the flow in this respect.
2. I regard the rhythm here as very important. There is an internal rhyme in "rosa/olorosa", but it can't be preserved and I don't think that matters. But to me the rhythm matters a lot. After "nurturing and fragrant", I think "maritime and earthy", with exactly the same rhythm, goes very well from this point of view.
3. Rhythm is the first thing that makes me prefer "maritime" to "marine", but I think "maritime" is suitable for other reasons; it means adjacent to the sea (a maritime region), and also suggests seafaring: Valencia being open to the sea.
4. I see "earthy" is what you've provisionally chosen, and I like it. "Earthly" would be a more literal choice, and "terrenal" is commonly opposed to "celestial", but it also suggests worldly, down to earth, rooted in the earth, as it were. "Earthy" captures some of these implications.
5. Any choice has drawbacks, mine included, of course, but I think the great thing to avoid here is over-interpreting. It needs something short and binary that captures the character of Valencia in as near as possible the terms of the original.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 9 hrs (2012-02-24 22:19:43 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Thanks! To be honest, I like it a bit less than I did when I posted it. I find Carol's version quite persuasive. But I'm not sure.
I keep wondering quite what Gala meant by "terrenal". I completely agree about "earthly in a crass sense" — worldly, if you like: showy, ostentatious, materialist. That's "terrenal" in its proper sense, constrasted with "celestial" (Castilian mysticism and asceticism, that other cliché). This idea is surely present. In fact I also intended the suggestion of vulgarity in "earthy"; there is something vulgar about Valencia (I speak as a resident). But as well as "tierra/cielo", there's also "tierra/mar". The first leads you to "earth", the second to "land". Gala can have both, but we have to choose one or the other. In the end I lean towards "earth". Yes, beyond agriculture and the huerta, there's also something deeper, something chthonic.
You must be right about the regional costume; in a few weeks the streets will be full of Dama de Elche lookalikes, with the quaint twirly bits on the sides of their heads. That is when many of us leave town, if we can: the "diáspora fallera", as a friend of mine put it the other day.
Further context considered (this appears in a chapter about the bat being the city mascot), I think I better leave it at this. But I really loved all the contributions and would thank you all. Quote it in another context and the version would probably change, everything's valid. 4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer
In this affectionate little poem (“Piropo”), Gala captures the character of Valencia in a series of adjectives expressing affective qualities and sensual impressions: moist, maternal, nurturing, fragrant, soft, vigilant. I believe “marina y terrenal” is meant to contribute to this, not just to describe Valencia’s setting in purely physical terms. These words express qualities too: qualities associated with “mar” and “tierra” and with the combination of the two, “seaness” and “earthness” (or earthiness?).
Further thoughts (by now surplus to requirements, no doubt) on what Gala might have meant by these words. Does “marina y terrenal” refer to Valencia’s natural setting, the fact that is a combination of sea and land, “mar y tierra”? Of course it does. But I don’t think that’s all, or even the most important part, of what he meant. He used a word, “terrenal”, with a specific meaning: “perteneciente o relativo a la tierra, en contraposición de lo que pertenece al cielo”. It’s not the “right” word, if you want to refer to land vs. sea; that would have been “terrestre” (“perteneciente o relativo a la tierra en contraposición del cielo y del mar”). So why “terrenal”? One obvious answer is that he wanted an internal rhyme with “maternal”. Thus, the argument would run, he expected us to realise that by “terrenal” he really meant “terrestre”, but had taken a liberty (poetic licence, dare I say) for the sake of a rhyme.
If that is all, it seems a bit inept, and I don’t think it is all. Gala can’t have been indifferent to what “terrenal” really means. He probably wanted us to understand more than just worldly or earthly (down to earth, of this world), but he expected us to start from there.
... but I still have days to sit on it. Let's see if, like Carol, I don't end up tweaking it beyond recognition (lol)
Margarita Osborn Belt (X)
16:53 Feb 25, 2012
I really like your version a lot too, Carol. Sorry not to have mentioned it earlier. And yes, this has been an inspiring thread. You're a great bunch of people.
Margarita Osborn Belt (X)
16:48 Feb 25, 2012
Your last version is great, Parrot. By the way, I'm a fan of yours. Do you think Daisies and Parrots get along?
my first reaction was one of great enthusiasm, but then "sea and earthbound" suddenly seemed rather a contradiction in terms, earthbound being too restrictive - in more than one sense
"Maritime" can, and often does, refer to seafaring. I think part of what "marina" refers to is Valencia's relationship with the sea, including seafaring (fishing and trading). But also "maritime" is the word we use to refer to land that is by the sea. Valencia is a maritime city in English, rather than a marine city.
As for earthy, it has a number or meanings. Some of them are literary and are no longer common in everyday speech, but poetry commonly invokes poetic meanings.
In everyday speech, it can describe flavour or colour, though the first things it suggests to me are metaphorical meanings: unrefined, direct, possibly crude (earthy humour). Also, of course, related to earth (which is not unsuitable in a region whose identity has much to do with the soil). But it also has a long history of meaning "terrene", or indeed "earthly", in its secondary senses of related to the land, terrestrial (earthy spirits) and secular rather than spiritual. This polysemy is what attracts me about it. The real meaning of "terrenal" is "not celestial, not spiritual". I don't that's all Gala meant by it, but I do think the meanings of "earthy" fit that.
although I've really come round to this in the sense that is being discussed here, I'm not too sure that this is actually what was in the poet's mind, and tend to agree in principle with Simon's interpretation. But perhaps it's a case of a partially overlapping translation that is more than acceptable
there are so many possibilities, all of which could be right, depending to a large extent on the text that surrounds them and the constraints of translating poetry. As Jenni says, it all has to fit together.
Re "maritime": I'm not sure that you're totally right, as a maritime climate is a geographical feature having nothing to do with technology or anything man made
It means "resembling or suggestive of soil." It's usually used to describe flavours of colours so, if you ask me, it sounds out of place in this context.
"maritime" refers to ships, boats, man-made technology used to navigate the sea, whereas the emphasis in the original is on the city's natural setting, it seems to me.
And while the kudoz decision is going to be tough...
"So this is Valencia. Open, moist and materal. Like a rose nurturing and fragrant, maritime and earthy, soft and vigilant."
Although I used Charles' phrase, Carol's first line came to substitute my vulgar "Thus", Simon's paraphrase kept me on track regarding sense, and Margarita's lovely reading of the rose (Daisy reading Rose?) all came together, with Helena keeping me mindful of at least SOME rhyme.
What say you we vote this one?
Jenni Lukac (X)
23:39 Feb 24, 2012
Half land, half ocean is quite nice. The thing is that is all has to fit together.
Carol, your take is simply wonderful. I have no doubt you'd tweak it beyond recognition by COB! Even so, what you've posted is simply marvellous stuff. And thanks for sharing. "Earthy" defo does it for me too...
The Fallera hairdo creates a similar effect; it's so stylised and so obviously modelled on that emblematic figure. I don't think there's a continuous tradition, but the iconography is obviously pre-Roman and pagan.
What is a bit bizarre is to see Falleras walking home, having changed out of their dresses but with the hair still in place. The Dama de Elche in jeans is quite a sight.
won't be the first time that's happened. Remember the Minoan mother goddess? Just after seeing her I walked out of the museum in Crete, there was a festival and they're still wearing the same thing! Except for the covered breasts, it hadn't changed much in 5000 years. (Now, she was chthonic. That's the earthy I mean.)
Margarita Osborn Belt (X)
19:42 Feb 24, 2012
It's late enough by now, so I assume you don't have to hand it in today. Perhaps if you sleep on it you'll find it easier to deal with in the morning. Forgive me if this sounds maternal. I've had four kids and the habit has stuck.
Margarita Osborn Belt (X)
19:34 Feb 24, 2012
Oxford's thesaurus suggests marine, seafaring, seagoing and coastal for "marina"; terrestrial, earthly and telluric for "terrenal". As Charles says, its a matter of priorities.
You ought to write Gala! Unfortunately, this is a mere quotation on another agenda, which is why I'm kind of loathe to give more context. Even tho open competition has ended and this is just documentation for publishing (i.e., it will come out). On another hand, this doesn't seem to be one of his published poems. Yet.
my neck out, but here is a very tentative version, using half rhymes and a modicum of scansion. And I know that, given time (and no recipes to translate!), I would have tweaked this beyond recognition by the end of the day ;)
So this is Valencia. Open, moist and maternal. Like a rose nurturing and ambrosial, mild and watchful, half land, half ocean.
you had a question mark for "earthy". Just thought I'd add my tuppenceworth anyway!
Margarita Osborn Belt (X)
16:19 Feb 24, 2012
The only trouble with Simon's solution is that we're talking about a string of adjectives that modify rose. Land and sea breaks with that idea. And what do you do with gentle and alert after that? A rose is gentle, obviously, but alert because it has thorns. On the other hand, so does the sea, I guess... it can get pretty rough.
cos it might give people good ideas. But you know Gala, he really writes very simply and just lets it flow. So I'm tending to Simon's solution, even tho my own exp. of Valencia opens me up as far as the fertility idea. It's a very old and very deep place. I also thought the title might be helpful because "piropo" is a kind of genre...
looks pretty good, although I'm not 100% sure about "earthy" here. This somehow has slightly negative connotations, but maybe I'm being over fussy.
Of course, if you want to wax "poetical", there's always "twixt land and sea", or something like that ("half land, half sea..."), either of which maintains a good rhythm
I assume that - for the purposes of rhyming or scansion - you can move parts of the text around (within reason!). At least, that's what I frequently end up doing. But for us to be able to help out with any of this, we'd need to know what you already have for the rest of the verse.
peer agreement (net): +5
