| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Issues with an agency: disagreement on the amount of an invoice Thread poster: Johnatan V
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Johnatan V
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:54
French to English
+ ...
Hi everyone,
I need some help with few problems I'm facing with an agency.
Now, to give you a bit of background, they send me a project by email including the word count and the rate and I confirm I accept it by return of email. Also, I am based in the UK and their financial services are based in France (but they have some offices in the UK as well).
I worked on a project for them that included 6 documents for a total of 60k words. It appears that document ... See more Hi everyone,
I need some help with few problems I'm facing with an agency.
Now, to give you a bit of background, they send me a project by email including the word count and the rate and I confirm I accept it by return of email. Also, I am based in the UK and their financial services are based in France (but they have some offices in the UK as well).
I worked on a project for them that included 6 documents for a total of 60k words. It appears that document 1 (30k words) was actually a combination of documents 2,3,4,5 and 6, something they hadn't mentioned in the email and that I only realised after having finished the translation of all the documents (which means that, technically, I translated the same documents twice).
The word count that has been given to me by the project manager being 60k words, this is the number of words I invoiced to them.
Two weeks later, I don't see the money on my account so I contact them only to be told that there is an issue on my invoice (note that they haven't tried to contact me about it). They tell me I've charged them twice for the aforementioned project.
I contest and they tell me they won't pay for having the same document translated twice (which, so far, I was unaware I did).
After a few emails back and forth, I consent to charge them half of my normal price for document 1, as a goodwill gesture, something they once again refused. In the meantime, they also refuse to pay the rest of the works done included in the invoice.
So my question is: am I in the right here for refusing to let go (as it represents quite a lot of money)? I feel the mistake comes from their side and I did everything I could to find a compromise (I even carried on working with them). I sent them numerous emails regarding this but their position remains the same: is there anything else I can do?
I also had another issue with them: I worked on a project which was 24k words. Half way through, I realise all the tables in the document are images (for a total of 1.5k words). I translate them and mention to the project manager that I will add them to the total word count on my invoice.
She came back to me saying that it will not be possible as the price for the project has already been given to the client.
Once again, what can I do about that?
I've been working with this company for quite a while now, but I encounter an increasing number of issues with them and will stop my collaboration with them. Though, quite rightly, I would like to be paid for the work I've done for them....
Any advice welcome! Thanks in advance! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Laureana Pavon 
Uruguay
Local time: 20:54
Member (2007)
English to Spanish
+ ...
MODERATOR | How could you not notice? | Nov 18, 2016 |
I usually side with the translators, not the agency.
But in this case I really can't imagine not noticing that I was translating the same 30k words twice.
In my opinion, you should have noticed and notified the client immediately.
| | | | John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 19:54
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
| How was this job done? | Nov 18, 2016 |
Did you use a CAT tool for the translation? If you did, it would automatically tell you that you were translating sections twice.
Also, and especially on a large job like this, I will always do my own word count calculation (using the CAT tool's analysis feature) and look for issues such as repetitions, before accepting the job. Any discrepancies between my count and the client's count have to be agreed to beforhand.
I frequently discover parts of a long document that a... See more Did you use a CAT tool for the translation? If you did, it would automatically tell you that you were translating sections twice.
Also, and especially on a large job like this, I will always do my own word count calculation (using the CAT tool's analysis feature) and look for issues such as repetitions, before accepting the job. Any discrepancies between my count and the client's count have to be agreed to beforhand.
I frequently discover parts of a long document that are images and uneditable. These should be found when examining the job before starting. When you encounter such images you need to immediately communicate with the client to find out what they want to do.
[Edited at 2016-11-18 14:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Angela Malik
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:54
German to English
+ ...
| On the second case.... | Nov 18, 2016 |
Johnatan V wrote:
I worked on a project which was 24k words. Half way through, I realise all the tables in the document are images (for a total of 1.5k words). I translate them and mention to the project manager that I will add them to the total word count on my invoice.
She came back to me saying that it will not be possible as the price for the project has already been given to the client.
Once again, what can I do about that?
In this case, nothing. You went outside the scope of the agreement, so that's your loss if you don't get paid for that extra work. You broke a major rule there: do not undertake work outside of the scope of the agreement unless and until your contractual partner agrees to include it in the scope.
It is very common to find parts of a document that are images or otherwise uneditable. The first thing I would do is bring it to the client's attention, give them a word count and state the additional cost that translating them represents, and then wait for the client to decide if they want those words too. But here it sounds like you just went ahead and translated them and THEN told the client to forget about your previous agreement because you changed it when they weren't looking. That's not cool, and also not legally enforceable. So you have no claim to the additional payment for those extra words.
[Edited at 2016-11-18 15:35 GMT]
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Johnatan V
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:54
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Laureana Pavon wrote:
I usually side with the translators, not the agency.
But in this case I really can't imagine not noticing that I was translating the same 30k words twice.
In my opinion, you should have noticed and notified the client immediately.
This job has been done over the course of a (very busy) month and a half without a CAT tool (I don't use any at the moment). The fact that the documents were identical wasn't obvious when I checked the document before starting the job (all the documents were really similar so I didn't question the deja-vu feeling, all the more so as the project manager gave me a separate deadline for each document, including the "combination document"). I know I probably should have realised it was the same document (hence why I tried to be as accommodating as possible) but I genuinely haven't.
I frequently discover parts of a long document that are images and uneditable. These should be found when examining the job before starting. When you encounter such images you need to immediately communicate with the client to find out what they want to do.
I checked the document beforehands and didn't notice this part of the text was an image. I let the project manager know about it in an email about another issue in the text, but didn't get a reply. I thought it would have been unprofessional to leave a full part of the text untranslated.
| | | | Niina Lahokoski
Finland
Local time: 02:54
Member (2008)
English to Finnish
+ ...
| But didn't the client confirm the word count and rate in the original email? | Nov 18, 2016 |
First case: If, as you say, the agency sent you the total word count without mentioning that it includes unpaid repetitions, then you have the right to charge the full amount based on that word count.
Second case: As Angela said, I'm afraid there's nothing to do. You should have informed the client before starting to translate the images.
[Edited at 2016-11-18 15:40 GMT]
| | | | Arianne Farah
Canada
Local time: 19:54
Member (2008)
English to French
Johnatan V wrote:
...they send me a project by email including the word count and the rate and I confirm I accept it by return of email...
... I realise all the tables in the document are images (for a total of 1.5k words). I translate them and mention to the project manager that I will add them to the total word count on my invoice...
So in the first case, that email is your PO - that's your contract. Period. They can't come back later and say that they're not paying part of it. I'd insist on being paid that amount (you've weakened your position by offering a rebate, so you're stuck with that now, you can't go back to full price - but your invoice should still read the full price minus the discount on two separate lines - not simply the discounted price since you don't have an agreement/contract for that).
In the second case, you messed up - you should have contacted the PM first and told them that you noticed many dead images in the text, and whether they had already lined up a DTP team to take care of them, then if they tell you that they don't, you can offer... whatever... legend under the image, text boxes floating over the image... quote per hour not per word since in the first case you're typing everything twice (souce = translation) and in the second case you're playing around with formatting, text boxes, etc. and wait until you receive confirmation.
Whenever there's a part of a project that's outside the scope of the original agreement, you stop, see with the PM and then get confirmation in writing of whatever you've agreed to. Don't be afraid to reply several times until you get an explicit answer ("hey it looks like this edit is going to take longer than the original 5 hours" "no problem" "just to confirm, are you authorizing me to spend several more hours on this project? I'll be sure to get back to you if ever I see that it'll be longer than 8 hours" "yes go ahead" / or "no, we don't have the budget for that" "ok, I don't think I can do a thorough edit in the quoted time because of the quality of the translation, how about I concentrate on grammar, spelling and mistranslations and not touch style?" "sounds great, go ahead" / or "no it has to be perfect" "I'm afraid that's not something I can do - I've spent 1 hour on the edit and I'm on page ##, would you like me to return it to you so that you can reassign it?") - but you can't just spend extra time, do extra work, and tell them after the fact.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 00:54
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Lack of project control | Nov 18, 2016 |
Johnatan V wrote:
they send me a project by email including the word count and the rate and I confirm I accept it by return of email.
Do you not at that stage check the word count? I have had clients whose word counts were "always" correct and I did get into the habit of accepting them if they seemed about right, but in that case I'd have accepted any error as mine. Normally, I'll check the count and inform them of any discrepancy - in either direction!
technically, I translated the same documents twice
And you never noticed? Really?
The word count that has been given to me by the project manager being 60k words, this is the number of words I invoiced to them.
Yes, but they are human too, so if they'd clearly made an error it was your responsibility to bring that error to their attention. A good relationship is only built on a certain amount of trust and goodwill.
After a few emails back and forth, I consent to charge them half of my normal price for document 1, as a goodwill gesture, something they once again refused. In the meantime, they also refuse to pay the rest of the works done included in the invoice.
Well, the payment for document 1 may be subject to further negotiation. But there's no way they can lawfully refuse to pay for the rest. The only thing is, if you accept payment for that part it may rather weaken your claim for any payment of the other. The translation was ordered and invoiced as one job and should be kept as one job really.
So my question is: am I in the right here for refusing to let go (as it represents quite a lot of money)? I feel the mistake comes from their side and I did everything I could to find a compromise (I even carried on working with them). I sent them numerous emails regarding this but their position remains the same: is there anything else I can do?
I really can't see a happy ending for either party. If it's a small agency, paying for anything that they can't pass on to their client is going to hurt, and they certainly can't expect their client to pay twice. OTOH, they made a mistake by sending you a file for translation that they shouldn't have sent, so they ought to pay for the time it took for that error to become clear to you. But that point should have arrived after just a few paragraphs (at the most) if you didn't use a CAT, or after just a few segments if you were using one. I can't imagine there's a court anywhere in the world that would expect them to pay for 30,000 words, or even 15k.
I also had another issue with them: I worked on a project which was 24k words. Half way through, I realise all the tables in the document are images (for a total of 1.5k words). I translate them and mention to the project manager that I will add them to the total word count on my invoice.
She came back to me saying that it will not be possible as the price for the project has already been given to the client.
You should have mentioned the problem before spending any time at all on them. You can't unilaterally change the job like that. Think how you'd have felt if they'd initially been counted and you'd translated them, and then they'd said they weren't meant to be translated and they wouldn't pay. It's no fairer for the translator to "move the goalposts" than the outsourcer.
It will be too late for your relationship with this client but it would be a good idea to try to base subsequent ones on the more ethical basis of two parties trying to do business together, each being paid fairly for what they do, and each accepting that the other party is human and therefore prone to making mistakes. Communication could have solved all the problems cited above.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 01:54
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Two issues, two opinions | Nov 18, 2016 |
Issue 1:
Johnatan V wrote:
I worked on a project for them that included 6 documents for a total of 60k words. It appears that document 1 (30k words) was actually a combination of documents 2,3,4,5 and 6, something they hadn't mentioned in the email and that I only realised after having finished the translation of all the documents.
If you had used a CAT tool, then you would have noticed this, and it would have been fair for the client to assume that you will only charge for roughly 30 000 words.
However, if you did not use CAT, then it is quite conceivable that you did not realise that you are translating sentences that are identical to sentences that you translated several days ago. The client sent you six documents, and you translated six documents. They owe you for the translation of the six documents. If you gained no advantage from the fact that there were repetitions between the files, then they can't expect you to give them a discount for those repetitions (unless that was the agreement beforehand).
They made a mistake by sending you a file whose contents was the same as some of the other files. They can't expect you to pay for their mistake. You offered a goodwill discount, and they should accept that.
Issue 2:
Johnatan V wrote:
I worked on a project which was 24k words. Half way through, I realise all the tables in the document are images (for a total of 1.5k words). I translate them and mention to the project manager that I will add them to the total word count on my invoice. She came back to me saying that it will not be possible as the price for the project has already been given to the client.
Yes, unfortunately, most agencies do not have automatic authorisation from their clients to adjust the invoice total if it turns out that the client or the agency had miscalculated the size of the project. And some clients will refuse to accept an adjusted invoice. After all, clients often choose agencies on the basis of which agency fits their budget.
You should not have taken the initiative by attempting to unilaterally change the agreed word count. You should have cleared this with the agency PM first.
Sheila Wilson wrote:
Do you not at that stage check the word count?
Even if she did check the word count, the count would have been... 60 000 words. Unless she was using a CAT tool to do the word count, of course.
[Edited at 2016-11-18 16:04 GMT]
| | | | Johnatan V
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:54
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Niina Lahokoski wrote:
First case: If, as you say, the agency sent you the total word count without mentioning that it includes unpaid repetitions, then you have the right to charge the full amount based on that word count.
Second case: As Angela said, I'm afraid there's nothing to do. You should have informed the client before starting to translate the images.
[Edited at 2016-11-18 15:40 GMT]
As mentioned, I informed them as soon as I noticed and they didn't give me a reply about this particular point.
Anyway, it seems that there is consensus here so, just to be sure: if it happens again, should I just leave the images as they are and leave them untranslated?
| | | | Johnatan V
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:54
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Samuel Murray wrote:
By the way, in what format was the source files? Every one who has replied so far just assumed that they were in a format that allowed you to do a word count, but: could you do a word count (e.g. were they PDFs)?
They were indeed PDF documents. The only thing I could do was to use a Pdf to Word software but those are not exactly reliable and can only be used to check if the word count given by the agency are in the same range. After that, I can either trust the agency or count each word one by one...
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 00:54
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Samuel Murray wrote: Sheila Wilson wrote:
Do you not at that stage check the word count? Even if she did check the word count, the count would have been... 60 000 words. Unless she was using a CAT tool to do the word count, of course.
You're right, Samuel. I was intending that as a more general comment. If you don't check word counts then, sooner or later, you're going to have problems.
If you had used a CAT tool, then you would have noticed this, and it would have been fair for the client to assume that you will only charge for roughly 30 000 words.
However, if you did not use CAT, then it is quite conceivable that you did not realise that you are translating sentences that are identical to sentences that you translated several days ago.
30k words, all of them in sentences/context identical to the ones you translated just days - or even weeks - before, without them ringing any bells at all in your memory? I find it difficult to believe. Surely anybody with a memory that dire would use a CAT for absolutely everything, wouldn't they?
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Laureana Pavon
Uruguay
Local time: 20:54
Member (2007)
English to Spanish
+ ...
MODERATOR
30k words, all of them in sentences/context identical to the ones you translated just days - or even weeks - before, without them ringing any bells at all in your memory? I find it difficult to believe. Surely anybody with a memory that dire would use a CAT for absolutely everything, wouldn't they?
This. I truly can't fathom how one can translate page upon page and not realize it is the same document.
I think the minute you realized you had already translated the same document you should have taken a closer look at the project and informed the client.
After all, they are only human.
[Edited at 2016-11-18 17:27 GMT]
| | | | Laureana Pavon
Uruguay
Local time: 20:54
Member (2007)
English to Spanish
+ ...
MODERATOR
30k words, all of them in sentences/context identical to the ones you translated just days - or even weeks - before, without them ringing any bells at all in your memory? I find it difficult to believe. Surely anybody with a memory that dire would use a CAT for absolutely everything, wouldn't they?
This. I truly can't fathom how one can translate page upon page and not realize it is the same document.
I think the minute you realized you had already translated the same document you should have taken a closer look at the project and informed the client.
After all, they are only human.
[Edited at 2016-11-18 17:33 GMT]
| | | | Thomas Pfann
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:54
Member (2006)
English to German
+ ...
| Inconsistent argument | Nov 18, 2016 |
I don't have much to add in terms of specific advice. It all seems to boil down to three points: good communication, properly analyzing the project before starting the work and confirming scope and terms at the beginning.
What strikes me, though, is how inconsistently the client argues both cases:
Case 1: Scope of work changes --> payment has to be adapted accordingly (even though the amount was agreed at the start)
Case 2: Scope of work changes --> payment cann... See more I don't have much to add in terms of specific advice. It all seems to boil down to three points: good communication, properly analyzing the project before starting the work and confirming scope and terms at the beginning.
What strikes me, though, is how inconsistently the client argues both cases:
Case 1: Scope of work changes --> payment has to be adapted accordingly (even though the amount was agreed at the start)
Case 2: Scope of work changes --> payment cannot be adapted accordingly (because the amount was agreed at the start) ▲ Collapse
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