| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Your budget is...what?!? Thread poster: Gregory Lassale
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| Starting out with low fees | Oct 3, 2018 |
While I agree completely with the idea of not allowing agencies to get away with ridiculous rates and demands of a perfect job, I also can't help but think that if you're starting out (and unless you have enough money to support yourself while you find the really good clients) you'll need to accept certain jobs that in other circumstances you wouldn't even consider.
Theory and practice are not the same thing and sometimes reality forces you to do things you know "aren't right". And ... See more While I agree completely with the idea of not allowing agencies to get away with ridiculous rates and demands of a perfect job, I also can't help but think that if you're starting out (and unless you have enough money to support yourself while you find the really good clients) you'll need to accept certain jobs that in other circumstances you wouldn't even consider.
Theory and practice are not the same thing and sometimes reality forces you to do things you know "aren't right". And I'm talking from experience here, starting out is difficult, finding good clients is even harder, and sometimes getting them to send you work seems also impossible. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 02:04
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Gregory Lassale wrote:
I don't think it's insulting to say "thank you for the offer, but unfortunately at these rates, I will respectfully decline - here are my current rates" - which is how my response is drafted.
Sorry, I thought your drafted response said "unless you can offer decent compensation", as you said in your initial post.
The nice thing about being a freelancer is that you are free to reject any offers from a client, even if it is a client that you regularly receive offers from. This is a new client, and new clients have a potential worth that goes beyond the amount of the initial job offer. If this were me, I'd either do the job for free or accept the $4 offer, but make it clear that my usual rate would be X, Y or Z (in fact, it would make me look more serious if I just do the job for free, otherwise the client might think that $4 is within my acceptable range even though I said it wasn't). Not all agencies have fixed rates -- some allow the rate to be set by the end-client, and you can't reliably judge the agency by its first offer. Make sure you get the second and the third offer by making sure that you are the one translator the agency contacts next time they have a job. You can always reject offers, but to reject offers you have to receive them.
[Edited at 2018-10-03 09:46 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:04
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Gregory Lassale wrote:
..... my wife keeps telling me that maybe accepting those bottom-feeder rates is how you start out and pay your dues...
Your wife is wrong. If you accept a low rate they'll keep expecting a low rate. You'll never get away from it. You'll end up working twice or 3 times as hard, just to make enough money.
| | | | Jennifer Lambert (X)
China
Local time: 08:04
German to English
+ ...
Unless you entered the translation industry before computers were invented, and obtained solid, long-term clients, clients are going to expect lower rates from you. I choose to rely less on translation income and more on a teaching income.
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Gregory Lassale wrote: I don't think it's insulting to say "thank you for the offer, but unfortunately at these rates, I will respectfully decline - here are my current rates" - which is how my response is drafted. Haven't sent it yet. Of course, it WOULD be insulting to say "You kidding me? Stop wasting my time. I'm charging X - take it or leave it". It's how you say it, I suppose.  [Edited at 2018-10-02 20:10 GMT]
Well you have wasted a lot of words here Gregory. Anybody can offer you anything they like, either accept it or ignore it. those people don't know you, you don't knoiw them, so don't engage if you don't like it.
here, I'd say, using KISS principles:
'Thanks for your offer, please be aware that my minimum fee is based on 200 words'
95% chance they'll accept.
BTW I reckon your wife's right, get some work AND experience, then get better clients.
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You should offer dog sitting services instead of translation services.
I've read an article on a physician who makes 100 000 dollars per year
as a dog sitter in NYC.
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David GAY wrote:
You should offer dog sitting services instead of translation services.
I've read an article on a physician who makes 100 000 dollars per year
as a dog sitter in NYC.
Oh, is César Millán a physician too?
Now seriously. If a customer gives you decent (yes, “decent”; there is nothing “insulting” in this word) amount of work and once in a while they ask you to do tiny project at ridiculous rates, do it and keep them happy, as they deserve it (i.e. they usually give you much more lucrative projects). I would do a 100 word project for free for this kind of customer than charging them 0.04 of whatever currency.
Now, if this good customer starts to send you tiny projects only, with no minimum rate, and this practice is sustained in time, it is your responsibility to kindly explain them that you can only “afford” doing small project "for nothing" if they give you “decent” volume of work in terms of larger, more lucrative, projects.
Now, if you are contacted by an agency you’ve never worked with, consider convincing them to pay you your minimum rate, and if they accept and then become regular customer, you can consider adjusting your commercial policy accordingly.
Never say just “no”; always give alternatives. Never be rude to anyone, no matter how ridiculous an offer may sound.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:04
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Merab Dekano wrote:
.... Never be rude to anyone, no matter how ridiculous an offer may sound.
Good advice. I usually respond by saying "Very sorry but I'm completely snowed under with other work."
However I'm always reminded of Humphrey Bogart in "The Big Sleep".
"I don't mind if you don't like my manners. I don't like 'em myself. They are pretty bad. I grieve over them during long winter evenings"
[Edited at 2018-10-05 07:40 GMT]
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Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 20:04
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Another option | Oct 5, 2018 |
While I generally agree with not accepting low offers, another option here would be to do the tiny job for free - while making it clear that it is a one-off freebie and stating your minimum fee for future projects.
Maybe the client contacts you again, maybe not. If not, you have not lost a lot of your time.
My general point is that in instances where it doesn't cost much to make a very favorable impression, it might be a good idea to do so....
| | | | Gregory Lassale
United States
Local time: 19:04
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
Thank to most everyone for your input. Interesting - but not overly surprising - to see that opinions differ on what to do with low-rate offers. Not surprising because experience in any given domain doesn't mean convergence of opinion. I have a certain amount go knowledge when it comes to self-defense for example, and there "experts" disagree on many things, too.
I think that when it comes to negotiating rates, just like a in many many a thing in life, a little common sense goes a ... See more Thank to most everyone for your input. Interesting - but not overly surprising - to see that opinions differ on what to do with low-rate offers. Not surprising because experience in any given domain doesn't mean convergence of opinion. I have a certain amount go knowledge when it comes to self-defense for example, and there "experts" disagree on many things, too.
I think that when it comes to negotiating rates, just like a in many many a thing in life, a little common sense goes a very long way.
- Of course, never be insulting. Regardless of power dynamics, agencies don't care about potential contractors' feelings when they essentially tell you "our way or the highway". I worked 20 years in sales. Good business is healthy business. Healthy business is a mutually beneficial agreement, not a one-way street.
- Of course, if agreeing to a lower rate, don't settle for one that will make it absolutely impossible to bridge the gap to what you think you are worth later. You're selling yourself. Keep some room for maneuver.
- Of course, if a client keeps abusing your kindness and willingness to accommodate, walk.
- Of course, if a client who sends you regular, fairly compensated work asks for a favor on a small job, of couse don't jeopardize your relationship.
- There is very little reason to think that a client offering peanuts now will later bring lucrative jobs. You teach people how to treat you. If you give someone a low rate without batting an eyelash, they'll keep asking for it for as long as they can.
Given all this, I don't think there's any one way to handle these requests well. It will vary, depending on who the client is, the rapport you have with them, your personal situation, your professional standing, the length of the job, how low the rate actually is...etc. Lots of moving pieces.
In my case - starting out - I think I'll need to strike a good balance between accepting a few lower rate jobs - within reason - to get some momentum going, but not dipping so low that I am just shooting myself in the foot long-term; AND not until after I've tried to negotiate compensation that either *is* or is *close enough to* my normal rate - all with tact, professionalism and courtesy of course.
To go back to this job, I would have rather done it for free to build a rapport with the client. I have done that in the past and continue to do that on a larger scale than 100 words, actually. In this particular instance, I tried to negotiate a better rate but client had already found someone willing to take it for $0.04/wd. Good on them, I suppose. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Gregory Lassale
United States
Local time: 19:04
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
Robert Forstag wrote:
While I generally agree with not accepting low offers, another option here would be to do the tiny job for free - while making it clear that it is a one-off freebie and stating your minimum fee for future projects.
Maybe the client contacts you again, maybe not. If not, you have not lost a lot of your time.
My general point is that in instances where it doesn't cost much to make a very favorable impression, it might be a good idea to do so....
Hi Robert. I ended trying to negotiate a better fee, but yes, that for occasional tiny jobs I think I will start defaulting to doing them for free to try to get some momentum going and make a good first impression.
Thanks for the input.
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 20:04
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Just avoid this kind of agency | Oct 5, 2018 |
Gregory Lassale wrote:
I was just contacted for a short project (about 100 words) and was offered a whole 4 (four!) dollars for it by the agency.
[Edited at 2018-10-02 17:25 GMT]
Some other linguists in this forum thread have recommended you to do it for free or accept the $4.00 offer to let "the potential client“ have a good impression about you. However, I don't think this agency will pay you anything better in the future. A minimally conscientious agency should know you should be paid a minimum fee in the first place. This agency might just be pretending to be ignorant about the minimum fee thing, and your generosity would lead to nowhere.
Better stay away.
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Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 20:04
Spanish to English
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| Not a bad idea for very small jobs | Oct 5, 2018 |
Gregory Lassale wrote: Robert Forstag wrote:
While I generally agree with not accepting low offers, another option here would be to do the tiny job for free - while making it clear that it is a one-off freebie and stating your minimum fee for future projects.
Maybe the client contacts you again, maybe not. If not, you have not lost a lot of your time.
My general point is that in instances where it doesn't cost much to make a very favorable impression, it might be a good idea to do so.... Hi Robert. I ended trying to negotiate a better fee, but yes, that for occasional tiny jobs I think I will start defaulting to doing them for free to try to get some momentum going and make a good first impression. Thanks for the input.
Hey Gregory,
You are very welcome. Again, this goes against my MO, but I think it can make sense for very small jobs initially offered by an agency. If I weigh the probability of making a good impression that might lead to significant work against the inconvenience of writing and tracking an invoice for 50 bucks or less, the case seems compelling.
Best of luck!
[Edited at 2018-10-05 22:04 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 20:04
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| A good first impression is important but your time might be abused | Oct 5, 2018 |
Gregory Lassale wrote:
Hi Robert. I ended trying to negotiate a better fee, but yes, that for occasional tiny jobs I think I will start defaulting to doing them for free to try to get some momentum going and make a good first impression.
Thanks for the input.
Your defaulting to doing them for free might make a good first impression but might lead to abuse of your time as well. Years ago, I had a client who sent me more than 10 tiny jobs in a month. For each of them I got paid for $2 to $5, and I had to create an invoice for each of them. It felt like I was working for them almost full time for a payment of less than $50 in that entire month.
[Edited at 2018-10-06 01:00 GMT]
| | | | Gregory Lassale
United States
Local time: 19:04
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
@jyuan_us
A good point, and one that I have definitely considered. That's why I mentioned that those freebies and lower-rate jobs needed to be done within reason. As previously stated, it's going to be about finding the right balance.
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