| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Early payment discount Thread poster: Sonja Biermann
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Williamson 
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:18
Flemish to English
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| Proz.com membership payment Southern European Style | Jun 6, 2008 |
Suggestion: Why don't we get a discount of 10% when we pay our Proz.com memberships on-line and why don't we pay them as is customary in the (translation industry) in France & Southern -Europe. i.e. we become Plantinium/Corporate Members, but we pay only after 60 days or 90 days for the Italians and a couple of reminders. I think Henry & C° will be delighted with such payment terms .
[Edited at 2008-06-06 15:16]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 09:18
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| The invoice should be for the full amount | Jun 6, 2008 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
The people we are negotiating with may well not be in a position to take that kind of decision. Worse, indeed, they may say "yup ok, 10% off and we'll pay in 10 days", safe in the knowledge that after the work is done and you can do sod all about it, the accounts/finance department will pay your invoice after the same wait as anyone else. If you're lucky, they may admit they don't have authority to fast-track payment, but if you're not, then you've been duped into a 10% discount.
In my scenario you would not negotiate a discount and then invoice for the discounted amount. No, if the full amount is EUR 1000, then your invoice should be for EUR 1000... with a little note at the bottom that says "Payment made before XYZ qualifies for a 10% discount".
Then it doesn't matter if the client doesn't fast-track your invoice. If he does, you get EUR 900. If he doesn't, you get EUR 1000. If he pays after XYZ but pays only EUR 900, then you'd deal with it the same way as you'd deal with any client that doesn't pay the full amount.
However, do speak to your tax accountant to find out how a discount should be handled in your bookkeeping... because the wrong wording could cost you a lot of grief at year-end.
[Edited at 2008-06-06 17:45]
| | | | | Price lists based on terms | Jun 7, 2008 |
Ralf Lemster wrote: ... The client referred to above came back for more business, BTW - and guess what: they paid a mark-up equivalent to 30 days' interest. 
Some interesting ideas here. I suppose one could expand on Samuel's (?) suggestion and have different versions of a price list based on the terms a client requests - 15, 30, 45 or 60 days or whatever. While I tend to negotiate rates individually for jobs or clients, this might streamline the process of negotiating with new customers a bit.
If I had some client that was really insistent about "discounts" for on-time or early payment, I suppose I would agree after marking my rates up to cover that discount and an additional margin to cover the added administrative hassle. I liked the comment that the "discount" consists of not being charged statutory interest for a late payment!
| | | | | the dirty tricks continue... | Jun 7, 2008 |
Williamson wrote: Sorry, mate, no credit given or In God, we trust. All others pay cash (30 days). Go to your doctor, dentist, your lawyer or any other professional and ask them if they accept to get paid after 60 days or pay your utility bills after 60 days. After all, that is a custom in Southern Europe? Wait and see what happens. If you do not have the money to finance at least 1 project, you should not be in business as an outsourcer. [Edited at 2008-06-05 18:19] [Edited at 2008-06-05 18:21]
Good points, Williamson.
Freelance work is and should be contract-based, and the client receives a finished product. Payment is due upon delivery of that finished product. 30 days is already a joke.
One has to be absolutely careful not to fall into the trap of unprofessional people calling themselves translation agencies who are simply out to make as much money off you as they can.
Cheers!
Bernhard
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| bad apples and good oranges | Jun 7, 2008 |
Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:
Comparing freelance work with employment is like apples and oranges.
Yes, if you are employed, you can expect to be paid on whatever regular schedule you agreed on. The key word is steady, regular payments. That is different from freelance work.
Employees get benefits, such as health insurance and retirement. Freelancers have to get their own, if they want/need it....
...So, comparing full time employment with freelancing, (which is more like contract-based, project by project) is not that simple and if a freelancer cannot afford giving 60 days credit to his/her customers it is not necessarily his/her fault.
We are here not to belittle, but to help each other.
Good points, Katalin.
When it comes to comparing jobs posted on proz.com by translation agencies and, on the other hand, steady employment by a reputable agency, it's like comparing bad apples with good oranges.
I hardly ever get serious jobs from any job postings here but rather through word of mouth/e-mail, other translators, direct clients who contact me, or direct clients I was able to contact. There are certainly many good points to be made regarding the proz.com community, but job posters/job postings are hardly one of them.
Lexical's comments show how low one's own self-image as a translator can go, not necessarily because of one's own doing but because translation agencies have successfully lowered translators' expectations to their (the agencies') advantage.
This trend continues as long as there are translators who accept those agencies' terms.
In my reply to Williamson's comments I described such discount as a dirty trick and I stand by it, it's just another "technique" to pull us all down further, make us cheaper and take advantage of us.
Bernhard
[Edited at 2008-06-08 01:20]
| | | | | Another viewpoint from the Iberian peninsula | Jun 7, 2008 |
lexical wrote:
That's why I say conform to the business practice of your culture, aka get real.
Although it wasn't a walkover to convince some of them - granted - all my clients in both Spain and Portugal pay within 30 days, and have done so for a few years now. The only one to intially refuse has since come back and now pays promptly within 30 days as well.
If you're happy with a 60-day business model, that's obviously your prerogative. It personally doesn't work for me because (i) I don't find the idea of acting as a bank to undercapitalised clients appealing at all, 30 days is long enough and (ii) all my Dutch/Belgian/English clients pay very quickly, the longest being 30 days, some as quick as the same week of invoicing. I'm always pretty swamped with Dutch requests, so I need to put Portuguese on the same playing field to keep it an attractive option and make it worthwhile at all.
However, the idea that 60 days is almost cast in stone and 30 days is unattainable in Southern Europe (at least Portugal/Spain) is certainly not correct. And it's not just me, I've urged a number of local translators, some of whom work with Spanish agencies too, to push for the same and they've succeeded with no drop in work as a result.
All I'm saying is, perhaps it's worth having another look at the so-called business practice of your culture and then deciding what current reality actually is. Accepting "that's just the way things are in Spain/Portugal" isn't necessary.
[Edited at 2008-06-08 09:09]
| | | | Mervyn Henderson (X)
Spain
Local time: 09:18
Spanish to English
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| Food on the table | Jun 8, 2008 |
Hi all,
Re Lexical's comment on Proz whingeing and the idea that being paid at 60 days is an issue only if you don't have a lot of work to pay bills, I look back and remember that was quite true when I didn't have regular work years ago.
In that situation we all look for someone to blame, and late payers are a convenient target. It's no fun anxiously checking bank balances and shifting money from here to there just because someone's imaginary accountant has gone on an ... See more Hi all,
Re Lexical's comment on Proz whingeing and the idea that being paid at 60 days is an issue only if you don't have a lot of work to pay bills, I look back and remember that was quite true when I didn't have regular work years ago.
In that situation we all look for someone to blame, and late payers are a convenient target. It's no fun anxiously checking bank balances and shifting money from here to there just because someone's imaginary accountant has gone on an imaginary holiday, or whatever the latest excuse is, and in our frustration we rail on about the 60 days.
But sometimes (I said SOMETIMES, not in every case, so please don't hit me with a hail of "how-dare-he"s!!!!!) - it's not the 60 days is the problem - it's your general economic prospects are the problem. If you have dozens and dozens of customers all paying you at 60 days, that means you have a constant stream of "late" payments. Since they're constant, who gives a biscuit?
Having said that, in the main I'm with Debs and others - almost the entire planet gets paid within a month or so. If you don't try for respect in this profession, very few offer it. I insist on 30 days from the word go with new customers out of principle. I make sure they understand that, too, before I start, - 30 calendar days after delivery, i.e. you have one month to pay, thank you, so while I get started on your job, you make sure your bank account's healthy and your accountant's up to speed with holidays.
Bye,
Mervyn ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Exactly my thoughts and my experience! | Jun 8, 2008 |
Lawyer-Linguist wrote:
However, the idea that 60 days is almost cast in stone and 30 days is unattainable in Southern Europe (at least Portugal/Spain) is certainly not correct. And it's not just me, I've urged a number of local translators, some of whom work with Spanish agencies too, to push for the same and they've succeeded with no drop in work as a result.
All I'm saying is, perhaps it's worth having another look at the so-called business practice of your culture and then deciding what current reality actually is. Accepting "that's just the way things are in Spain/Portugal" isn't necessary.
I hardly ever work for Italian agencies because of their normally low rates. But here again, "nothing is cast in stone" - if they have a very specific translation, everything can be negotiated: rates and payment terms of course. Some of them even don't mind to feign being completely bewildered when I point out that there has been an Italian law since 2002 that says that payments have to be made within 30 days. I bet if there was one saying that invoices must not be paid before 150 days, they would know immediately...
Some agree, some don't. I simply refuse to wait 60 or even 90 days for my money, and I make this very clear immediately. I guess that when the money finally arrives, you don't even remember what you are paid for ... And nobody is lending money to me for free, so why should I? I would not have any cash flow problems if I did, though, because all my other customers pay within o month or earlier. It's just a matter of principles.
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lexical
Spain
Local time: 09:18
Portuguese to English
| the reason for my low self-image | Jun 8, 2008 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Lexical's comments show how low one's own self-image as a translator can go, not necessarily because of one's own doing but because translation agencies have successfully lowered translators' expectations to their (the agencies') advantage.
This trend continues as long as there are translators who accept those agencies' terms.
I am surprised that Bernhard Sulzer thinks he is privy to the state of my mind. For his information, my self-image is not low at all - in fact, I think I'd be a much better person with a strong dose of humility.
I am not advocating the granting of long credit periods as a norm for everybody: I'm just saying it is not a big issue for me because I have a steady and predictable stream of work from loyal, reliable customers, most of whom have been with me for over a decade. This means I also have a steady and predictable stream of income; the fact that it is sometimes 45-60 days post-invoice is irrelevant because the 'slippage' was absorbed 10 years ago. The fact that I am sufficiently well-off financially not to have to worry about cash flow must be a major contributing factor in my "low self-image", I'm sure.
I attribute this state of affairs to the fact that I regard my customers as partners, not - as seems to be all too common in these forums - as the enemy. As a result, I never need to market myself or bid for work because I have more than I can cope with, and I have never had a non-paying customer. Being businesslike is not about screwing outsourcers; it's about building enduring partnerships that are profitable to both sides, retaining customers and consolidating income streams. I cannot believe that sending in the debt collectors after a fortnight (pace Williamson) or threatening court proceedings after 30 days is any way to retain customers.
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lexical wrote:
I attribute this state of affairs to the fact that I regard my customers as partners, not - as seems to be all too common in these forums - as the enemy.
That's THE key and the only one ! Be businesslike !
| | | | | I beg to differ | Jun 8, 2008 |
lexical wrote:
Being businesslike is not about screwing outsourcers; it's about building enduring partnerships that are profitable to both sides, retaining customers and consolidating income streams. I cannot believe that sending in the debt collectors after a fortnight (pace Williamson) or threatening court proceedings after 30 days is any way to retain customers.
I don't think such a behaviour is based on partnership. Agencies already earn on top of our rates, and this is ok. But delaying also our payment, they earn twice, and you? If they cannot pay us within a reasonable time (and 60 days are NOT a reasonable time, objectively), whether their customer has paid or not, there is something wrong in their business.
Having a fair relationship with an outsourcer does not mean, IMHO, that he dictates the rules and we say yes. This cannot be "profitable to both sides" as you say.
| | | | | Join the 'financially secure' club | Jun 8, 2008 |
lexical wrote:
I attribute this state of affairs to the fact that I regard my customers as partners, not - as seems to be all too common in these forums - as the enemy. As a result, I never need to market myself or bid for work because I have more than I can cope with, and I have never had a non-paying customer. Being businesslike is not about screwing outsourcers; it's about building enduring partnerships that are profitable to both sides, retaining customers and consolidating income streams. I cannot believe that sending in the debt collectors after a fortnight (pace Williamson) or threatening court proceedings after 30 days is any way to retain customers.
Thanks to the way I structured the departure from my law firm in SA, I am in the same fortunate boat and can likewise afford to wait for payment. So what?
It's your prerogative to wait, as I've stated above, but to my mind that's not the point.
I don't regard agencies / end clients as 'enemies' - far from it - but I certainly expect them to be businesslike. Expecting someone to wait 60 days for payment for a professional service, especially one you've been providing reliably for over a decade, just isn't.
All you've actually succeeded in doing is creating/perpetuating a wonderful comfort zone for them, namely 60-days interest free credit. Who wouldn't be loyal under those favourable terms?
Personally I don't like getting screwed and so opt for the 30-day model which is long enough as it is for both sides. But hey, whatever works for you.
And as for customer retention, it wouldn't be necessary to threaten proceedings or send in debt collectors with any customer worth retaining, they'd simply pay on time, under exceptional and rare circumstances forewarn you of a delay or rectify the situation the very first time you enquired. Anyone needing to consider those options and refraining because they want/need to keep the customer is a beggar for punishment.
[Edited at 2008-06-08 14:36]
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lexical
Spain
Local time: 09:18
Portuguese to English
Christel Zipfel wrote:
Having a fair relationship with an outsourcer does not mean, IMHO, that he dictates the rules and we say yes. This cannot be "profitable to both sides" as you say.
I never said anything about "a fair relationship with an outsourcer" meaning that "he dictates the rules and we say yes". That is your interpretation. If you choose to interpret business partnership in this way, that is your privilege.
| | | | lexical
Spain
Local time: 09:18
Portuguese to English
Lawyer-Linguist wrote:
I don't regard agencies / end clients as 'enemies' - far from it - but I certainly expect them to be businesslike. Expecting someone to wait 60 days for payment for a professional service, especially one you've been providing reliably for over a decade, just isn't.
All you've actually succeeded in doing is creating/perpetuating a wonderful comfort zone for them, namely 60-days interest free credit. Who wouldn't be loyal under those favourable terms?
Personally I don't like getting screwed and so opt for the 30-day model which is long enough as it is for both sides. But hey, whatever works for you.
And as for customer retention, it wouldn't be necessary to threaten proceedings or send in debt collectors with any customer worth retaining, they'd simply pay on time, under exceptional and rare circumstances forewarn you of a delay or rectify the situation the very first time you enquired. Anyone needing to consider those options and refraining because they want/need to keep the customer is a beggar for punishment.
[Edited at 2008-06-08 13:12]
1. Where is the objective proof that being paid at 30 days is not being screwed, and being paid after that is? Suppose being paid after 15 days were regarded as being screwed? What then? It's purely subjective.
2. My customers are not loyal because they get 60 day's credit - they're loyal because I happen to be very good at what I do. But as I said earlier, it behoves me to be more humble.
3. Insisting on being paid at 30 days is no more than an exercise in butch behaviour. Consider - if you invoice, say, 5000 euros a month, what your bank would pay you in interest on a current account in Western Europe on that amount for a month (the difference between 60 days and 30 days) would be at most 5 euros if you are lucky, and it could be as little as 50 cents. I accept that this could be different if you lived in a high inflation, third world country.
4. But if 5 euros or 50 cents is so important to your cash flow - as you say, "hey, whatever works for you". To me, it's a mere bagatelle. I know what works financially for me, and I don't intend to change my practices because some people who, for all I know, are considerably less prosperous than me happen to think I am a sap or that I'm letting the side down.
| | | | | Ideally 30 days - Maximum 60 days - After that they pay you 2% | Jun 8, 2008 |
That's my reasoning. We are lucky to say most of our customers pay in 30 days, some pay in 60 days, but we cannot accept any later than 60 days or we would ask for the legal interest rate on the money.
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