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Grow salad in your window! | Dear Tomás...

juvera — Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:03:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: juvera
Post title: Dear Tomás...

Sorry about coming back to this theme so late, the notification is not working for me at present, so I missed the reply.
[quote]Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
[quote]juvera wrote:
[quote]Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
The true catastrophy is the fact that we eat more, more, and more meat! [/quote]
Nope.
The true catastrophy is the fact that we produce more, more and more people, who eat whatever is edible to survive and produce more, more and more people! [/quote]
I agree in a way. But how can you suppress the natural desire of every person to have descendants? I think it is quite impossible. Having my two sons has been the best experience of my life and I wouldn't have agreed with any law prohibiting me from having children. [/quote]

I agree with you. As it happens I also have two sons, and they are the focus of my life and giving me the greatest happiness I can have.

Children who are wanted and cared for are the future of human kind, but there are children who just happen because of ignorance, laziness, negligence, and these often also suffer through their childhood and even through adult life.

Laws and prohibitions are not the answer. Awakening the conscience of people and education would, but I am not so naive as to believe it is an achievable goal. The problem is, more people there are, more difficult it becomes.

The only thing I wish that we would spend as much effort on that problem as we do on other, somewhat less important issues in the world.

I apologise for intruding with this subject, as it is not really the subject of the thread, and I won't come back to it.

Grow salad in your window! | If we wanted to live among trees...

Colin Ryan (X) — Wed, 20 Oct 2010 10:36:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Colin Ryan (X)
Post title: If we wanted to live among trees...

...then we shouldn't have evolved from being monkeys, with all due respect.

But we did evolve, and now we have bricks and mortar, and global warming and all the rest of it. Every organism changes its environment to suit itself, and this ends up killing the organism; the only reason we can breathe Earth's atmosphere is because now-extinct species produced too much oxygen (see [url removed] ).

What I mean is, we are not destroying nature; we are a part of nature, and whatever we create will form the "beautiful wilderness" that will incubate the next species to rule the universe.

Not wishing to imply that we should pollute ad nauseam; just that eventual self-destruction seems to be inevitable.

What a cheerful thread this has turned out to be!

[Edited at 2010-10-20 10:41 GMT]

Grow salad in your window! | Inhuman

Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT — Wed, 20 Oct 2010 10:13:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Post title: Inhuman

[quote]ryancolm wrote:
I don't know if the City of Milan are actively planting and caring for new trees, but there are plenty of old-growth trees here, and in most cities in Italy. Milan is famous for being something of a concrete jungle, but there are actually a lot of little green corners in it. After ten years here I'm almost starting to like the place.[/quote]
Yes, I have been to Milan a couple of times (although over a decade ago), and personally think it is not human enough in the sense that it does not have enough trees.

We must make a firm stance towards planting of trees in our cities, or we will increasingly live in inhuman environments.

Grow salad in your window! | Milan!

Colin Ryan (X) — Wed, 20 Oct 2010 10:02:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Colin Ryan (X)
Post title: Milan!

[quote]Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:

Maybe we have different expectations when it comes to the word "tree". To me, a "tree" is any species that grows taller than 4-5 meters by nature if you allow it to grow. Small decorative trees as planted today everywhere in Spain are not "trees": they hardly give any shadow, they don't cover the building in the very hot summer, and they are not tall enough to contain nests. [/quote]

That's how I define a tree as well. Has to be big enough to climb.

[quote]
If your city has plenty of big trees and is planting and caring for new trees, just let me know where it is. I might consider moving there seeing the trend everywhere in Spain (and not only in Seville). [/quote]

I don't know if the City of Milan are actively planting and caring for new trees, but there are plenty of old-growth trees here, and in most cities in Italy. Milan is famous for being something of a concrete jungle, but there are actually a lot of little green corners in it. After ten years here I'm almost starting to like the place.

Grow salad in your window! | Agree

Soonthon LUPKITARO(Ph.D.) — Wed, 20 Oct 2010 01:02:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Soonthon LUPKITARO(Ph.D.)
Post title: Agree

[quote]Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:

I agree in a way. But how can you suppress the natural desire of every person to have descendants? I think it is quite impossible. Having my two sons has been the best experience of my life and I wouldn't have agreed with any law prohibiting me from having children. [/quote]

Natural desire is not what you can explain easily unless your have your own children.

Soonthon Lupkitaro

Grow salad in your window! | Just count your blessings!

Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT — Tue, 19 Oct 2010 17:05:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Post title: Just count your blessings!

[quote]ryancolm wrote:
Hate to point this out, but 1. you're describing one city, not all cities, and 2. there are fewer trees in that city, not no trees at all.
So, I remain to be convinced. [/quote]
Maybe we have different expectations when it comes to the word "tree". To me, a "tree" is any species that grows taller than 4-5 meters by nature if you allow it to grow. Small decorative trees as planted today everywhere in Spain are not "trees": they hardly give any shadow, they don't cover the building in the very hot summer, and they are not tall enough to contain nests.

If your city has plenty of big trees and is planting and caring for new trees, just let me know where it is. I might consider moving there seeing the trend everywhere in Spain (and not only in Seville).

Grow salad in your window! | Um...

Colin Ryan (X) — Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:51:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Colin Ryan (X)
Post title: Um...

[quote]Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
But the future is here! I don't know about Italy, but in Spain we are living an era in which every renovation of a street or square replaces proper big trees with bushes pruned in the form of trees, metal works, stone and cement.

For instance, I went to Seville last weekend, and the world-famous "Parque de Maria Luisa" looked like a thinning old-man's scalp! Less and less big trees for the last 20 years, as locals report. All because of some landscaper in charge of Seville's parks and who apparently does not believe in dense tree areas.

So the tree-less future I was announcing is here already. [/quote]

Hate to point this out, but 1. you're describing one city, not all cities, and 2. there are fewer trees in that city, not no trees at all.

So, I remain to be convinced.

Grow salad in your window! | The future is here!

Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT — Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:26:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Post title: The future is here!

[quote]ryancolm wrote:
Why are you so sure that soon I will have to go into the countryside to see a tree?
Why do you automatically assume a dystopian future?[/quote]
But the future is here! I don't know about Italy, but in Spain we are living an era in which every renovation of a street or square replaces proper big trees with bushes pruned in the form of trees, metal works, stone and cement.

For instance, I went to Seville last weekend, and the world-famous "Parque de Maria Luisa" looked like a thinning old-man's scalp! Less and less big trees for the last 20 years, as locals report. All because of some landscaper in charge of Seville's parks and who apparently does not believe in dense tree areas.

So the tree-less future I was announcing is here already.

Grow salad in your window! | What if the dystopia turned out to be a utopia?

Colin Ryan (X) — Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:12:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Colin Ryan (X)
Post title: What if the dystopia turned out to be a utopia?

[quote]Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Personally I am not at all interested in space travel.
[/quote]

Neither am I. I was merely pointing out that a scientific breakthrough could change everything in the comparative blink of an eye. Suddenly we might be able to mine the Moon for some kind of miracle fuel and all our energy worries would be over. No more power stations on Earth, of any kind.

[quote]
As for trees, in fact trees is what we lack of in our cities, increasingly enslaved by minimalist, cement-and-metal city planners and landscapers. Soon you will have to go to the countryside to see a tree! Well, a living tree made of wood and leaves and not a metal imitation of a tree, that is. [/quote]

What city do you live in, exactly? I've thought about this, and I don't think I've ever been in a city that didn't have parks in it. Or tree-lined avenues. Or just trees, full stop. To paraphrase Ogden Nash:

I think that I will never see
A city that is without a tree.

Why are you so sure that soon I will have to go into the countryside to see a tree?
Why do you automatically assume a dystopian future?

[Edited at 2010-10-19 15:13 GMT]

Grow salad in your window! | I don't care about space...

Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT — Tue, 19 Oct 2010 14:30:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Post title: I don't care about space...

[quote]ryancolm wrote:
There might be a breakthrough around the corner that can make space travel possible for the masses within a decade, for all we know.[/quote]
Personally I am not at all interested in space travel. Space is a huge, cold emptiness and I my interest for it is comparable to my interest for crossing the Gobi desert on a bycicle... nearly nil.

I think that the mothership we have to care for is right under our feet. Of course there will lots of innovations that will reduce the load on our environment, since reducing that load is important for a big part of the population and there will be money and fame for those who create new things. But I don't think we can rely entirely on the hope for future innovations: we must try to think twice when we buy things and make decisions for our daily lives.

As for trees, in fact trees is what we lack of in our cities, increasingly enslaved by minimalist, cement-and-metal city planners and landscapers. Soon you will have to go to the countryside to see a tree! Well, a living tree made of wood and leaves and not a metal imitation of a tree, that is.

Grow salad in your window! | Well, I suppose it is funny.

Colin Ryan (X) — Tue, 19 Oct 2010 14:24:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Colin Ryan (X)
Post title: Well, I suppose it is funny.

Laugh, drink and be merry... for tomorrow the world may not end after all...

Grow salad in your window! | Thanks so much

greenlantern — Tue, 19 Oct 2010 12:41:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: greenlantern
Post title: Thanks so much

This is so funny, I was just researching hydroponics on my lunch break!
Universal consciousness...
GL

Grow salad in your window! | There's no point in worrying. Just do the best you can.

Colin Ryan (X) — Tue, 19 Oct 2010 12:32:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Colin Ryan (X)
Post title: There's no point in worrying. Just do the best you can.

Not wishing to appear pessimistic, but simply by continuing to exist we will eventually inevitably use up everything we have and be forced to colonise other planets. That's demonstrable for as long as population grows, which it will keep doing.

I just refuse to worry about it. So much of the Green "agenda" is geared towards scaring the crap out of us... why? What would be so bad about an Earth with a population of 500 billion, if they were all happy and enjoyed a better lifestyle than the average person does now? I live in a big city today, and I might only travel outside it every couple of months, or less. Even if I take a flight somewhere, it's to another city. So I don't see that my life would really change very much.

Obviously I know that trees are necessary etc., but something tells me that in the future we'll have worked out how to manage land a bit better. That's the problem with today's predictions of the future: they all fail to factor in future innovations, which are of course unknowable, and therefore they must all, necessarily, be wrong. There might be a breakthrough around the corner that can make space travel possible for the masses within a decade, for all we know.

[Edited at 2010-10-19 12:35 GMT]

Grow salad in your window! | Indeed

Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT — Tue, 19 Oct 2010 10:31:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Post title: Indeed

[quote]juvera wrote:
[quote]Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
The true catastrophy is the fact that we eat more, more, and more meat! [/quote]
Nope.
The true catastrophy is the fact that we produce more, more and more people, who eat whatever is edible to survive and produce more, more and more people! [/quote]
I agree in a way. But how can you suppress the natural desire of every person to have descendants? I think it is quite impossible. Having my two sons has been the best experience of my life and I wouldn't have agreed with any law prohibiting me from having children.

Grow salad in your window! | True catastrophy

juvera — Tue, 19 Oct 2010 10:28:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: juvera
Post title: True catastrophy

[quote]Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:

The true catastrophy is the fact that we eat more, more, and more meat! [/quote]

Nope.
The true catastrophy is the fact that we produce more, more and more people, who eat whatever is edible to survive and produce more, more and more people!

Grow salad in your window! | I respectfully disagree...

Colin Ryan (X) — Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:08:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Colin Ryan (X)
Post title: I respectfully disagree...

[quote]Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
OK, we all like orange juice, a bit of lemon in our soft drink, some of those lovely bananas, and sushi fished across the world every now and then, but if we have too much of that, we are directly destroying our planet. [/quote]

Um, no we're not, actually. If we do the above, then we're simply drinking orange juice, eating sushi etc. "Directly destroying the planet" would involve, at the very least, detonating a lot of thermonuclear weapons.

I could just as easily say to you that you're "directly destroying the planet" by using a computer and having an internet connection. You do know that those things are produced by polluting industries, right?

Sorry to jump down your throat, Tomàs, it's nothing personal; but I don't like being patronised. When I was an angry young man I was utterly anti-globalism and totally green, and I pontificated to all my friends on the evils of eating pineapples flown in from Ghana, etc. But you know, if you ask the Ghanaian pineapple farmers their opinion of this arrangement, they will give you a very short and blunt explanation.

Grow salad in your window! | Growing your food

Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT — Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:02:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Post title: Growing your food

Ok guys. I wanted to share some thoughts about all this thing of "growing your own food".

Ok. I live in a country with lots of sun, lots of fertile soil, and in some areas enough water to grow lots of food. In fact, my country exports huge quantities of vegetables and fruit of all kinds to all over Europe. And all this food, I mean the food we export and the food we consume locally, is produced by 5% of the population. Thanks to farming machinery, it is no longer very hard work, but it is very tricky work.

I really doubt you can reasonably produce more than 3-4 kilos of vegetables a year in your window, basically for a number of reasons:
- Only warm countries have a reasonable growing season. Forget about it in Northern Europe. Vegetables not only need water, but also light and a reasonable temperature.

- Windows in cities only get sun for a certain part of the day. On the flat surface of farming land or green gardens, vegetables usually get enough sunlight for 8-10 hours a day in the summer. Depending from your building, the orientation of the window and what other buildings you have around, your window could probably get some 3-4 hours of sun... or no sun at all in most of the year.

- Plants need leaf surface to produce something: forget about eating more than three or four small tomatoes unless your tomato plant has at least a square meter of leaf space. Is your window much bigger than that?

- If your plants do grow nicely.... do you want to lose the view in your window?

Not every year, but many years I plant a 100-sqmt green garden, and can tell you that the produce we obtain from it is not much higher than 30-40 kg of produce in a good year. Does that feed my family? Of course not. It is merely testimonial.

As for growing produce on top of buildings, personally I think it is quite absurd. How many people live in a 5-storey building with 4 apartments each? Maybe some 50 people? How much space will you have for each neighbour? Ridiculous.

Now, if we are talking about is about health, culture, and reduction of the load to the environment by growing in the cities, I personally support the idea of converting big parks to big green gardens. Parks are beautiful, but they don't feed anyone apart from squirrels and black birds (actually black birds are great pest killers for green gardens).

Let's take Hyde Park, for instance. With 140 hectares (1,400,000 square meters), I reckon it could allow some 280 family-sized green gardens. 280 families with 5,000 square meters each could grow all their food for a year, by growing vegetables, eating some, selling some (to exchange for fish, rice, wheat, etc., milk, butter) and feeding some chickens and a pig each family. Now, what do we do about the other hundreds of thousands of families living in the area?

Now, honestly guys: let's let farmers grow our food. They are very good at it and they like what they do. Unless we live in the countryside, have a big piece of land, and have the time for it, we have no option to produce our food more than for the fun of it.

However, just think what damage are you causing by:
- Eating too much meat
- Drinking too much milk or eating too much butter and cheese
- Buying too much food that was produced 5,000 km away (or 1,000 km away, or 500 km away, for that matter)

OK, we all like orange juice, a bit of lemon in our soft drink, some of those lovely bananas, and sushi fished across the world every now and then, but if we have too much of that, we are directly destroying our planet.

Grow salad in your window! | It's a sad sight...

Nesrin — Sun, 17 Oct 2010 12:10:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Nesrin
Post title: It's a sad sight...

[quote]Charlotte Blank wrote:

And here's an article about all this (in German): [url removed] ,,6093959,00.html [/quote]

So that's what we'll have in the place of rolling fields of green. Obviously a lot better than the world going hungry, but still, what a sorry sight!

Grow salad in your window! | Exactly!

Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT — Sun, 17 Oct 2010 08:46:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Post title: Exactly!

[quote]patyjs wrote:
is vegetarian awareness month, it's worth mentioning that the vast majority of our crops (and water) goes to feeding livestock.[/quote]
Indeed! If you don't feel like becoming a vegetarian but are concerned about the amount of land we use, just reduce the quantity of meat you consume! Eating fully ovo-lacto-vegetarian dishes one or two days per week is a pleasure and reduces the load for the environment!

The true catastrophy is the fact that we eat more, more, and more meat!

Grow salad in your window! | thank you to both Charlotte and Paty!

Patricia Rosas — Sat, 16 Oct 2010 23:51:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Patricia Rosas
Post title: thank you to both Charlotte and Paty!

I just found this on the Internet (knew to look because friends keep reminding me about this fact!):

According to a new report published by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, the livestock sector generates more greenhouse gas emissions as measured in CO2 equivalent – 18 percent – than transport. It is also a major source of land and water degradation.

I have a little land, but I have to share it with so many critters that everything gets eaten long before I can get to it! And the water used for irrigation evaporates quickly. So, when I have a few free minutes, I'll look into the hydroponic window idea.

Thanks again for sharing!

Patricia

Grow salad in your window! | And as October

patyjs — Sat, 16 Oct 2010 22:21:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: patyjs
Post title: And as October

is vegetarian awareness month, it's worth mentioning that the vast majority of our crops (and water) goes to feeding livestock. I don't have the exact figures on hand but I do know that we could easily feed every living person on the planet if we used our farmland to better advantage i.e. cereals, beans, fruits and vegetables for people. Seriously, we can serve ourselves and the planet far better than this (not to mention the animals...don't get me started!).

Good post, Charlotte. :)

Grow salad in your window!

Charlotte Blank — Sat, 16 Oct 2010 22:01:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Grow salad in your window!
Poster: Charlotte Blank

[url removed]

"Want to grow some of your own food but don't have a yard?
WindowfarmsTM are vertical, hydroponic, modular, low-energy, high-yield edible window gardens built using low-impact or recycled local materials.

You can grow up to 25 fresh live vegetable plants—lettuce, herbs, snap peas, cherry tomatoes, peppers, kale, small squash, edible flowers, and many more—in a normal 4'x 6' window in your home. That could be a salad a week."

This is the "lighter" side of this new way of growing plants but it is also a very serious issue:

[url removed]

"By the year 2050, nearly 80% of the earth's population will reside in urban centers. Applying the most conservative estimates to current demographic trends, the human population will increase by about 3 billion people during the interim. An estimated 109 hectares of new land (about 20% more land than is represented by the country of Brazil) will be needed to grow enough food to feed them, if traditional farming practices continue as they are practiced today. At present, throughout the world, over 80% of the land that is suitable for raising crops is in use (sources: FAO and NASA). Historically, some 15% of that has been laid waste by poor management practices. What can be done to avoid this impending disaster?"

And here's an article about all this (in German): [url removed] ,,6093959,00.html