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State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | ...

Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 11:43:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz
Post title: ...

I tend to insist that my quotes constitute only an invitation or information and are not a binding offer in the full sense of the law on contract formation unless clearly identified as such.

This last part is important because a broad disclaimer looks like a cheap ***-covering device, which a judge or jury may struggle with taking seriously. Avoid making yourself unreasonably immune or non-liable, and you'll look all the more reasonable and thus credible for it.

On the other hand, you can just simply ciate a good justification instead, e.g. the dynamic and transient and fast-changing and some-other-corpospeak nature of e-mail communication and informal nature of your business, which renders the application of traditional rules impracticable.

Definitely set any deadlines in business days rather than as a specific date, unless you include a validity date.

I wouldn't try making your quotes offers conditional on immediate acceptance (or prompt, reasonable etc.) because people are going to ignore or dispute the 'immediate part'. Depending on the jurisdiction and their knowledge of the applicable law, their interpretation of 'immediate' may be correct and supported by case law and yours not. So don't expose yourself to that risk.

I also tend to insist that a binding order is formed by clear mutual confirmation (rather than express or explicit) but the client may cancel at any time on condition of paying for work already done.

My most recent idea is to include a general provision that communication should be based on actual communication and understanding as opposed to entrenched reliance on formal and formulaic rules. (And in case of doubt you consult the other party, not the law book.)

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | The opposite happened to me as well

Gabriele Demuth — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 19:29:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Gabriele Demuth
Post title: The opposite happened to me as well

It was a fairly urgent project just before Christmas, the agency came back to me very quickly and accepted my offer, that was when I noticed that I had quoted in the wrong currency $ instead of GBP! I notified them straight away and the PM still said that it was fine and wouldn't be a problem.

By that time I had started reading through the text and loaded it onto my CAT tool. I contacted the agency again to ask them a question when I was told that her colleague had given the job to another translator and that they would always send a PO to confirm!? Lucky escape, I thought!

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | Advising in cyberspace and a vacuum

Adrian MM. (X) — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 18:42:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Adrian MM. (X)
Post title: Advising in cyberspace and a vacuum

[quote]Dan Lucas wrote:

What safeguards do you include in your quotes, if any?

Regards
Dan
[/quote]

I am amazed how everyone keeps advising without reference to any legal system and the enquirer's country, for instance the law of England and Wales or the US where a contract can be implied from the circumstances, namely partly written and party oral, and without the need for any purchase order: cf. Sheila W. referring to an exchange of emails.

Alternatively, the client may be operating out of Mongolia, South/North Korea or Japan where other contract rules apply.

The parties are free to choose any governing law they wish for the contract or arbitration: Chinese and Russian are unpopular at the mo. So first safeguard: agree what law is to apply.

[Edited at 2016-01-10 18:47 GMT]

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | A morality tale / encouragement for good practice- some points to remember

Noni Gilbert Riley — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 18:26:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Noni Gilbert Riley
Post title: A morality tale / encouragement for good practice- some points to remember

I don't think Dan can be faulted here, nor perhaps his client - this was a straight down the line misunderstanding, but it could indeed have been avoided if the client had paid closer attention!

Likewise, I don't think Teresa was foolish to do what she did, although it didn't pay off. And, who knows, the project still might come about.

What is unfortunate is that anyone should be feeling disgruntled over either of these cases: they shouldn't. A little frustrated I shall allow!

From all of this, I am reminded of the necessity to be explicit at all times, so that the following are quite clear:

1. Always ask for explicit confirmation that you are to start a job. Whether this is in the form of a formal PO or a simple e-mail is unimportant, but confirmation there should be.
2. When quoting you shouldn't be put in the position of making yourself unavailable for other work whilst waiting for the reply, so it should always be "depending on availability".
3. Many of us will be able to take on a short job in the middle of a larger one - will often welcome it - but the timing may be crucial, ie the job could be done in 4 hours, but only between Monday and Wednesday, say, and straying into Thursday would be impossible, so many quotes will have to be dependent on not just a deadline, but a window. Hence the need to express an expiry date on a quote.
4. EOB. And when is that, pray? Far too vague a term in my book. And even if we are in the same time zone, "mid afternoon" is no use either. I have to work with specific hours stated to avoid misunderstandings.
5. Since we are talking about a lot of provisos, and it has been shown how easy it is for a client to miss an important part of your quote, I do think that presenting your quote in table form is advisable.
6. And yes, last but not least, do mention that their acceptance of your quote and PO means that they accept your terms and conditions too. Far too often I receive a PO which contradicts half of what I've included in my quote. Watch out for those who send you an e-mail confirming that you should start and then send the PO later on....

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | Sensible precautions

Dan Lucas — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:11:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Dan Lucas
Post title: Sensible precautions

[quote]Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
In addition to the expiry date, which is stated in all my quotations, I try to make a clear statement in emails about the fact that I do not begin work until I get an explicit request to do so. ... I often ask explicitely, in case I feel there could be any misunderstanding[/quote]
I think this is probably what I am going to do in future: state that it's not an order until I get a clear statement.

Thanks to everybody for their input. I agree that accidents will happen. All we can do is take steps beforehand to mitigate them in the event that they occur.

Regards
Dan

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | Also in emails

Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:01:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Post title: Also in emails

[quote]Dan Lucas wrote:
Anyway, from now on all my quotes will include not only a declaration to the effect that the quote lapses at a certain date and time GMT, but also a statement that, until a PO is sent, the job shall not be deemed to have been accepted by me.[/quote]
In addition to the expiry date, which is stated in all my quotations, I try to make a clear statement in emails about the fact that I do not begin work until I get an explicit request to do so. Such statement can take forms like the following:

- I will not begin work on this job until I hear from you in this sense.
- I remain on standby on this job until your final confirmation.
- I will wait for your confirmation of this order before doing any work.

I often ask explicitely, in case I feel there could be any misunderstanding:

- So, I should wait for your confirmation before doing any work, right?
- This is not a final order from you yet, is it?
- I will wait for your explicit order before doing any work. Is that OK?

Even with all these safeguards, confusions happen!

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | Many clients don't use POs

Sheila Wilson — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 11:05:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Sheila Wilson
Post title: Many clients don't use POs

I agree with you, Dan, except that I wouldn't require a PO. I actually receive very few, even from agencies. Some put a reference number in the email subject line; others have a different way to identify the job, maybe from the file name.

For a new client, I always end my email with words to the effect that their reply must explicitly agree to my T&C and authorise me to do the work. With some clients, I feel the need to repeat that, albeit less formally, for every job. But for others, we soon get to a very simplified exchange. I might get an email titled "Xxx January n" (Xxx being project name and n being a sequential number within the month) with the text "Can you do this for EOB Tuesday?". All that's required from me is an "OK" or similar.

I imagine that was part of your problem, Dan. You had a good relationship with the client and thought you were on the same wavelength. In that case, I can see that there could be a problem, one that I too could have one day. But you can only cover so many bases. In the end there's always going to be a slight risk of everything going pear-shaped over a misunderstanding.

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | I know i'm guilty...

Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 10:40:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Post title: I know i'm guilty...

[quote]Lingua 5B wrote:

[quote]Teresa Borges wrote:

I had just the opposite experience very recently! I have been working with an agency since 2011: very regular (every month) and interesting projects, acceptable rates, very polite and friendly PMs, payment always on time! In short, an ideal translation agency…

I was asked last 23rd December if I was available to translate a text to be delivered on the 30th December. I said yes and, though the following e-mail said “You will probably receive the go ahead on Monday”, I decided to go straight ahead translating the 4,000 words as we were getting into the full flow of Christmas and New Year. Wrong decision! A few days went by and when finally I asked for the PO I was told “please consider that job cancelled for the time being”…
[/quote]

I think this one is on you, since they said "probably". Yes, we have to deal with these "stand-by" situations, so your client is basically buying your "stand-by" time for free until Monday? What if you received a good offer on Sunday, but turned it down due to this situation, then ended up losing both?

[Edited at 2016-01-09 21:23 GMT] [/quote]

I know it’s my bad and that in this case I’m guilty for having rushed things, but otherwise I couldn’t have delivered the project on time…

PS In over 30 years, I have never received a good offer on a Sunday…

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | An explicit "go ahead" is required.

Kristina Cosumano (X) — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 09:36:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Kristina Cosumano (X)
Post title: An explicit "go ahead" is required.

Regarding POs: I have worked for a large agency who sent the PO after my translations were submitted, so that I may include the number on my invoices. However, a clear wording to the effect "OK, please proceed" must be coming from the client before I start, and the PM was very clear about that.

It sounds like your client got a bit ahead of him/herself and assumed the OK had been given when it had not been.

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | Quote time from PO received, not specified day and hour.

Jack Doughty — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 07:40:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Jack Doughty
Post title: Quote time from PO received, not specified day and hour.

A fairly obvious point, but one that I have forgotten sometimes:
When asked if you can complete by a certain time, and the job is still not a definite order, don't agree to this but say you can complete it within X hours or days of getting the PO with the go-ahead to start it. As the song Kathleen Mavourneen says, "It may be a year and it may be forever..."

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | Entirely their fault

Lincoln Hui — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 01:22:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Lincoln Hui
Post title: Entirely their fault

I don't know what business they're in, but I don't know any in which you don't have to give a positive confirmation to go ahead with a service.

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | Time waits for no-one

Denise Phelps — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 00:47:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Denise Phelps
Post title: Time waits for no-one

Following some steep learning curves, my standard response is roughly "Pending confirmation, at time of writing I could deliver on X date for X fee". Leaves it clear I want explicit confirmation, and I don't commit myself to hanging around for even a nanosecond waiting for their decision.

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | Term

Preston Decker — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 00:25:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Preston Decker
Post title: Term

[quote]Dan Lucas wrote:

What safeguards do you include in your quotes, if any?

Regards
Dan
[/quote]

One good safeguard is to make it expressly clear how long your quote is effective for/under what circumstances it may be terminated, especially if it seems possible a potential job will not go forward. This is especially important when dealing with clients in other time zones.

I just had a client ask for a quote on a rather large job. I replied with the quote, after which the client wrote to say that they had just submitted their own quote (based on mine) to their end client. After a day passed with no news, I wrote back to the client to tell them that my quote would stand unless I wrote to them to indicate otherwise (I made it clear that this was a possibility). This gave me an out if another client offered a job--all I would have to do is write to the first client to tell them the quote was cancelled.

[Edited at 2016-01-10 00:26 GMT]

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | Yes, I agree.

Lingua 5B — Sat, 09 Jan 2016 22:58:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Lingua 5B
Post title: Yes, I agree.

Some clients make you go into their system and wait for the final button for every little project. Meaning there is a system that prevents ambiguity, if you didn't run it through the system = it didn't happen.

Although I prefer less complicated procedures that are fully completed in emails, with the final "please proceed" email (without logging into separate systems).

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | A problem of ambiguity

Dan Lucas — Sat, 09 Jan 2016 22:36:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Dan Lucas
Post title: A problem of ambiguity

[quote]Lingua 5B wrote:
So your misunderstanding with that client was centered around the CAT tool to use, right?[/quote]
The misunderstanding was that he thought he had communicated to me that I should go ahead whereas I didn't get that impression at all. That was partly because he was still asking questions about tools etc., partly because he didn't respond to my last email in response to those questions and partly because he sent nothing like a purchase order. I'm used to clients who make that final step explicit with a "please go ahead".

What it boils down to is that ambiguity is bad for business: this is a universal truth of commerce. If there is a project on offer, the client's offer should be unambiguous and the translator's acceptance of that offer should be equally unambiguous.

Regards
Dan

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | Your misunderstanding

Lingua 5B — Sat, 09 Jan 2016 22:03:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Lingua 5B
Post title: Your misunderstanding

So your misunderstanding with that client was centered around the CAT tool to use, right?

Not sure why they were not clear about proceeding with work, but it's not something I encountered before. If they leave the communication without any clear statements to proceed, it usually means it's canceled.

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | Provided they're clear I don't mind an email

Dan Lucas — Sat, 09 Jan 2016 21:39:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Dan Lucas
Post title: Provided they're clear I don't mind an email

[quote]Lingua 5B wrote:
it may be useful to note that some clients take an email as the PO itself (but in that case you will find the PO Number in the email header or subject).[/quote]
Yes, that's a possiblity. I just went back to double-check as I was gripped by sudden doubt, but in this case there was nothing.

My Japanese clients tend to use the equivalent to the PO number as a reference in their emails from the initial inquiry stage, and send a formal PO after I have accepted the project.

I have one semi-regular client that does not use POs at all, but they are very clear about what they want. If the project is approved they will say "Please go ahead" and then I reply with a "Going ahead on the terms discussed" and it runs pretty smoothly.

Regards
Dan

[Edited at 2016-01-10 10:16 GMT]

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | POs

Lingua 5B — Sat, 09 Jan 2016 21:17:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Lingua 5B
Post title: POs

Dan, that's unusual what happened to you, it may be useful to note that some clients take an email as the PO itself (but in that case you will find the PO Number in the email header or subject).

[quote]Teresa Borges wrote:

I had just the opposite experience very recently! I have been working with an agency since 2011: very regular (every month) and interesting projects, acceptable rates, very polite and friendly PMs, payment always on time! In short, an ideal translation agency…

I was asked last 23rd December if I was available to translate a text to be delivered on the 30th December. I said yes and, though the following e-mail said “You will probably receive the go ahead on Monday”, I decided to go straight ahead translating the 4,000 words as we were getting into the full flow of Christmas and New Year. Wrong decision! A few days went by and when finally I asked for the PO I was told “please consider that job cancelled for the time being”…
[/quote]

I think this one is on you, since they said "probably". Yes, we have to deal with these "stand-by" situations, so your client is basically buying your "stand-by" time for free until Monday? What if you received a good offer on Sunday, but turned it down due to this situation, then ended up losing both?

[Edited at 2016-01-09 21:23 GMT]

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance | What constitutes acceptance?

Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida — Sat, 09 Jan 2016 20:42:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Post title: What constitutes acceptance?

I had just the opposite experience very recently! I have been working with an agency since 2011: very regular (every month) and interesting projects, acceptable rates, very polite and friendly PMs, payment always on time! In short, an ideal translation agency…

I was asked last 23rd December if I was available to translate a text to be delivered on the 30th December. I said yes and, though the following e-mail said “You will probably receive the go ahead on Monday”, I decided to go straight ahead translating the 4,000 words as we were getting into the full flow of Christmas and New Year. Wrong decision! A few days went by and when finally I asked for the PO I was told “please consider that job cancelled for the time being”…

State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance

Dan Lucas — Sat, 09 Jan 2016 17:35:00 +0000

Forum: Business issues
Topic: State when your quote expires and what constitutes acceptance
Poster: Dan Lucas

Suggestion: if you don't do this already, put an explicit time limit on your quotes. Include a statement to the effect that a job is not accepted until a PO is received.

I was reminded of this by [url= [url removed] #2508113]a comment[/url] in another thread, in reference to requests for urgent work.

In my case I am seldom chasing urgent work but I did have a problem recently after responding to a job posting. The potential client seemed interested so I evaluated his document and sent a detailed quote.

The client still seemed interested and sent an email with some questions, to which I responded. Then the client sent another email with "a few questions before starting". Have you used tool X before? Could you do Y?

No, I said, I haven't used X and I wouldn't be prepared to do that because not using my own tools would make me inefficient. I wouldn't do Y as that is not part of a normal translation project. Maybe, I hinted delicately, I'm not the right translator for this job.

There was no response from the client. He didn't say "I understand, perhaps we should forget about this". He didn't say "Please go ahead with the job". He didn't send a PO. Clearly he had lost interest or had found another translator. I gave a mental shrug and got on with my life. Pity, because it was a nice size: not too big, not too small.

A few days later, some hours after the deadline specified in my quote, this potential client sent me an email asking me why the translation had not been delivered. As you can imagine, I was rather surprised.

As politely as I could, I pointed out to him that there had been no purchase order and that there had been no "please start this job". I also reminded him that my quote made it clear that it was only valid until "HH:MM GMT on XX December 2015" and had long since lapsed.

He was not happy. To be honest, I wasn't happy either. I regret the misunderstanding, not least because I missed out on a decent project for a client who seemed acceptable.

Anyway, from now on all my quotes will include not only a declaration to the effect that the quote lapses at a certain date and time GMT, but also a statement that, until a PO is sent, the job shall not be deemed to have been accepted by me.

What safeguards do you include in your quotes, if any?

Regards
Dan