ProZ.com Translation Forums

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | When and how to laugh when reading ancient Greek out loud

Samuel Murray — Sun, 26 Jan 2020 14:15:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Samuel Murray
Post title: When and how to laugh when reading ancient Greek out loud

[quote]“Humo[u]u[/u]r is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
-- from Virginia Woolf's essay "On not knowing Greek", 1925.

[i]It is vain and foolish to talk of "knowing Greek", ... since we do not know how the words sounded, or where precisely we ought to laugh, or how the actors acted, and between this foreign people and ourselves there is not only difference of race and tongue but a tremendous breach of tradition. ... There is this important problem: Where are we to laugh in reading Greek? There is a passage in the Odyssey where laughter begins to steal upon us, but if Homer were looking, we should probably think it better to control our merriment. To laugh instantly, it is almost necessary ... to laugh in English.

Humour, after all, is closely bound up with a sense of the body. When we laugh at the humour of Wycherley, we are laughing with the body of that burly rustic who was our common ancestor on the village green. The French, the Italians, the Americans, who derive physically from so different a stock, pause, as we pause in reading Homer, to make sure that they are laughing in the right place, and the pause is fatal. Thus [u]humour is the first of the gifts to perish in a foreign tongue[/u], and ...when we turn from Greek to English literature it seems, after a long silence, as if our great age were ushered in by a burst of laughter.[/i] [/quote]

FWIW, the original quote related to reading theatrical text out loud.

The first time I thought that Much Ado About Nothing was funny, was when I heard it spoken in the proper way. Up to then, I had only read it to myself (out loud) or had to read to me by school teachers (who were often saved by the bell). It was a revelation to me that Shakespearean "comedies" were actually meant to be funny. No doubt I'm unable to appreciate all of the humour contained in it (e.g. I seldom find puns funny if they have to be explained to me first, and puns are most funny when they are unexpected).

[Edited at 2020-01-26 14:32 GMT]

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | Disagree

Mario Freitas — Sat, 25 Jan 2020 19:23:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Mario Freitas
Post title: Disagree

One of the talents required from a good translator is transcreation, above all when they work with literature. Translating humor, feelings, poetrty, etc. does require this special talent, but it does not mean "perishing". It only means do it if you think you can, don't run the risk otherwise.

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | .

Kay Denney — Sat, 25 Jan 2020 12:01:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Kay Denney
Post title: .

I have many memories of sitting in French cinemas watching the French fall about laughing and wondering why they were doing that, because I was more likely thinking "but that's tragic".
Then I went to see "A Fish called Wanda" with an Irish friend in Paris, and it was French watching us laughing, very plainly thinking we must be crazy.
The first time I laughed watching a French film was a rerun of "La Chèvre" on TV. I was very proud of myself for understanding the humour at last.

Thanks everyone for making me laugh reading this thread!

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | Translatable or not

Philip Lees — Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:49:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Philip Lees
Post title: Translatable or not

[quote]Tom in London wrote:

[quote]Philip Lees wrote:
.... there used to be a lot of Irish jokes going around. In all these, the Irishman was very stupid and that was the point of the joke. These things are not considered politically correct nowadays, but we used to find them funny.

[/quote]

That was because you're not Irish. Thank goodness we threw you out.

[/quote]

Oh yes. And it wasn't just the Irish. I cringe now to think of some of the jokes I laughed at when I was a kid.

Here's a silly joke to challenge translators:

Q: What's brown and sticky?
A: A stick.

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | Irish jokes

Tom in London — Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:06:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Tom in London
Post title: Irish jokes

[quote]Philip Lees wrote:
.... there used to be a lot of Irish jokes going around. In all these, the Irishman was very stupid and that was the point of the joke. These things are not considered politically correct nowadays, but we used to find them funny.

[/quote]

That was because you're not Irish. Thank goodness we threw you out.

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | Baby

Tom in London — Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:03:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Tom in London
Post title: Baby

A while ago I tried out a new electric shaver when I was visiting from friends in Italy. When I came out of their bathroom they asked me how was my shave, and I replied, translating a very common English expression into Italian "smoother than a baby's bum". They looked at me with great concern, and nobody laughed.

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | Jokes

Philip Lees — Sat, 25 Jan 2020 08:37:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Philip Lees
Post title: Jokes

[quote]Muriel Vasconcellos wrote:

The first pitfall is to attempt a word-for-word translation and/or try to match the source syntax in the target language.

[Edited at 2020-01-25 06:49 GMT] [/quote]

This applies to all translation, of course. Not just humour.

Translating humour is a bit like translating poetry, in that it appears to be a priori impossible, but sometimes you get lucky.

When I was a kid in the UK, there used to be a lot of Irish jokes going around. In all these, the Irishman was very stupid and that was the point of the joke. These things are not considered politically correct nowadays, but we used to find them funny.

I think most cultures have jokes aimed at such a "disadvantaged ethnic group". For Greeks, it's people from the Pontus region near the Black Sea. So in many cases you could take a UK Irish joke and translate it to a Greek Pontian joke and it would still work. In the US it's Polish people (or used to be); in France, the Belgians I think. It might be interesting to collect data on this from many countries and try to work out what the common factors are.

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | It depends

Muriel Vasconcellos (X) — Sat, 25 Jan 2020 06:47:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Muriel Vasconcellos (X)
Post title: It depends

Much humor is not translatable, even between countries speaking the same language, but on the other hand there are occasions when the translation actually works. I wrote an article about it, with examples, in Babel: [url removed]

The first pitfall is to attempt a word-for-word translation and/or try to match the source syntax in the target language.

[Edited at 2020-01-25 06:49 GMT]

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | Disagree

Philip Lees — Sat, 25 Jan 2020 06:17:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Philip Lees
Post title: Disagree

I don't think I'm any less funny (or more funny for that matter) when I'm speaking Greek than I am when I'm speaking English.

Greek humour and English humour are different, but have a large area of overlap. To be honest, I don't really understand the question, but "perish" certainly seems like an overstatement. If somebody wanted to ask how well humour translates from one language to another, then that's what they should have asked. (The answer is "sometimes well, sometimes badly").

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | @Elke

Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 21:00:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Post title: @Elke

[quote]Elke Fehling wrote:

Who said that? I think that statement is a bit shallow, because translation rarely works by transferring words or sentences 1 to 1. Any experienced translator will know that...

[Bearbeitet am 2020-01-24 11:39 GMT] [/quote]

According to Google, it was said by Virginia Woolf.

[url removed]

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | Exactly

Vanda Nissen — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 20:33:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Vanda Nissen
Post title: Exactly

[quote]Justin Peterson wrote:

There is lots of humor that is universal, and translates just fine, jokes that work in Spanish and English, in Spain and the US, for example.

There are some jokes that contain cultural references that impede their cross-cultural transfer.

And there are some jokes that are funny to a certain people, from a certain country or nationality, that aren't funny in another, because of different sensibilities. This is very subjective, nuanced ... and interesting. After 20 years here, my sense of humor is half-Spanish. [/quote]

Justin, I agree. Universal humour can be easily understood by all human beings (for example, "How to give a cat a pill" by Peter Egan), however some of the jokes heavily depend on the cultural background, like Russian political jokes.

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | That's quite rare.

Lingua 5B — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 20:18:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Lingua 5B
Post title: That's quite rare.

[quote]Elizabeth Tamblin wrote:

Some excellent translators are clever enough to do it well. If done badly, it's at best cringeworthy, at worst incomprehensible. [/quote]

It depends on the type of humor as well. But if done well, it usually requires transcreation, not just translation.

As an example, a while ago I heard a joke from a French person, in French, and it involved word play / the humor was based on word play (moving different parts of a word around). While I automatically understood the word play, and what the joke was about, I did not feel it or connect to it. In other words, I got it on cognitive level, but not on emotional level, ie. it did not make me laugh. A few other jokes that I heard from the same person were funny and I did laugh.

Again, sometimes I don't find certain jokes funny in my language either. Or rather the way someone tells them is not funny/not engaging. It's a complex subject.

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | I know what you mean

Yetta Jensen Bogarde — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 19:59:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Yetta Jensen Bogarde
Post title: I know what you mean

[quote]Angus Stewart wrote:

When I was living in France the thing I struggled most with was trying to understand their sense of humour as it doesn't translate well. [/quote]

First time I managed to make a joke that made the French laugh, it was a real victory.

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | Agree

Tina Vonhof (X) — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 19:57:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Tina Vonhof (X)
Post title: Agree

When I first came to Canada, I noticed how many humorous sayings and word plays we have in Dutch that sound totally wrong when translated. It's not surprising, really, because jokes are embedded in an entire culture, not only in the language.

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | Not sure

Elizabeth Tamblin (X) — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 18:58:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Elizabeth Tamblin (X)
Post title: Not sure

Some excellent translators are clever enough to do it well. If done badly, it's at best cringeworthy, at worst incomprehensible.

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | Agree

Angus Stewart — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:40:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Angus Stewart
Post title: Agree

When I was living in France the thing I struggled most with was trying to understand their sense of humour as it doesn't translate well.

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | It doesn't translate well...

Elke Fehling — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:39:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Elke Fehling
Post title: It doesn't translate well...

... Or easily (oftentimes), but it doesn't necessarily perish in another language.

Who said that? I think that statement is a bit shallow, because translation rarely works by transferring words or sentences 1 to 1. Any experienced translator will know that...

[Bearbeitet am 2020-01-24 11:39 GMT]

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | Not necessarily

Justin Peterson — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:23:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Justin Peterson
Post title: Not necessarily

There is lots of humor that is universal, and translates just fine, jokes that work in Spanish and English, in Spain and the US, for example.

There are some jokes that contain cultural references that impede their cross-cultural transfer.

And there are some jokes that are funny to a certain people, from a certain country or nationality, that aren't funny in another, because of different sensibilities. This is very subjective, nuanced ... and interesting. After 20 years here, my sense of humor is half-Spanish.

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.” | Agree

Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 09:18:00 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Post title: Agree

Humor doesn’t travel well among languages and is extremely difficult to translate. A joke in English for instance will not achieve the equivalent effect in Portuguese and vice-versa.

Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”

ProZ.com Staff — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 08:10:03 +0000

Forum: Poll Discussion
Topic: Poll: “Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”
Poster: ProZ.com Staff

This forum topic is for the discussion of the poll question "“Humor is the first gift to perish in a foreign language.”".

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