| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | meaning of source and target text (bible quotes) differ Thread poster: Heike Holthaus
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Heike Holthaus 
United States
Local time: 01:03
Member (2012)
English to German
+ ...
I am translating subtiles for a creation speaker. He builds one of his arguments on biblical text in English. However when translating, I looked the text up in a german Bibel and his argument falls apart:
English: Genesis 7:1
"And the Lord said unto Noah, *Come* thou ..."
The argument: God was with Noah in the ark, because he said to *come* into it.
German: 1 Mose 7:1
Under der Herr sprach zu Noah: *Gehe* (Go) in die Arche...
... See more I am translating subtiles for a creation speaker. He builds one of his arguments on biblical text in English. However when translating, I looked the text up in a german Bibel and his argument falls apart:
English: Genesis 7:1
"And the Lord said unto Noah, *Come* thou ..."
The argument: God was with Noah in the ark, because he said to *come* into it.
German: 1 Mose 7:1
Under der Herr sprach zu Noah: *Gehe* (Go) in die Arche...
The problem I am having with this is: If I translate according to the German Bible (I checked two different versions) I ruin the speakers point. If I freely translate, what the speaker says two things will happen.
1. I am changing the offical German translation of the Bible.
2. German viewers with bible knowledge will recognize the discrepancy, which could potentially damage the credibility of the speaker. In their view he makes an invalid point.
Since the video can not be changed and the speaker is not available for comments, I can only translate freely, but it just doesn't seem right.
Any input is appreciated. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | | OG Pete
United States
Russian to English
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| 'come' vs. 'go' in 1611 | Dec 17, 2012 |
Fascinating issue. I wonder if someone can explain here why the King James Bible reads "come" where the Luther Bible reads "go" (gehe).
Thanks for bringing this up!
[Edited at 2012-12-17 19:51 GMT]
| | | | Heike Holthaus
United States
Local time: 01:03
Member (2012)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | hebrew roots | Dec 17, 2012 |
This bugged me enough, that I looked it up in the Strong's concordance and the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible:
The word *come* here is from strongs # 935, which is the Hebrew word 681, with the meaning to come or to go.
Ancient Hebrew Lexicon:
1024) V) To fill a void by entering it. This can be understood as to come or to go.
Altough that explains the discrepancy - it does not solve my dilemma ... See more This bugged me enough, that I looked it up in the Strong's concordance and the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible:
The word *come* here is from strongs # 935, which is the Hebrew word 681, with the meaning to come or to go.
Ancient Hebrew Lexicon:
1024) V) To fill a void by entering it. This can be understood as to come or to go.
Altough that explains the discrepancy - it does not solve my dilemma ▲ Collapse
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Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 23:03
Dutch to English
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| What does the author say? | Dec 17, 2012 |
Can you discuss this with the author who is making the argument? As you say, it doesn't hold water. Obviously he/she has not done enough research on different translations of the Bible. There are so many things that have been translated wrong over the years.
| | | | Heike Holthaus
United States
Local time: 01:03
Member (2012)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Author/Speaker not available | Dec 17, 2012 |
Unfortunately, I can not contact the author at this time. Also, the video is at least 6 or seven years old. I guess the only thing I can do, is send a note with my translation.
The versions that I checked in English all say "come" and I have heard his argument before elsewhere. So in order for him to catch this, he would have to speak German, which I know he doesn't.
| | | | | Why not just leave it? | Dec 17, 2012 |
I'm no expert on German and have not got a German version of the story, but if you read the whole account of the flood, Noah 'walks with God' and they talk before he even builds the Ark. Standing outside the Ark, would it not be natural to say 'go into the Ark' when the time came? It also says that when they had gone into the Ark, God closed the door.
It sounds as if the Hebrew word means something like walk or move, and the direction or nuances like 'come' and 'go' are added from t... See more I'm no expert on German and have not got a German version of the story, but if you read the whole account of the flood, Noah 'walks with God' and they talk before he even builds the Ark. Standing outside the Ark, would it not be natural to say 'go into the Ark' when the time came? It also says that when they had gone into the Ark, God closed the door.
It sounds as if the Hebrew word means something like walk or move, and the direction or nuances like 'come' and 'go' are added from the context. But this does not immediately solve your problem.
God is not physically confined to one place like humans.
Right at the beginning of Genesis, before the Creation really starts, the spirit of God hovers over the water, and in the Noah story, it could be understood that the spirit hovered again, controlling the rain and the 'springs of the deep' to create the flood and then to allow it gradually to dry up.
When finally Noah sends first the raven and then the dove to search for dry land, God tells him when it is safe to leave the Ark. God was understood to be everywhere, and those who have read the whole story would have no problem with God being both in the Ark and outside it, in control of the wider situation.
Can you leave the German text that everyone knows, but allude to the 'walking with God', and God closing the door to keep everyone safe, so he was also on the Ark? I don't think you need to imply that God was not very close by.
[Edited at 2012-12-18 00:51 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Your own translation based on Christine's suggestion? | Dec 17, 2012 |
Just to make sure: your problem is that the Bible translations available are different in a way that undermines the speaker's argument?
I faced this issue frequently when I translated a spiritual book from Romanian into Hungarian, and the available HU Bible translations did not always deliver the desired meaning. This happens in other languages too.
In agreement with the publisher, our solution was to add a translator's note somewhere on the first pages, stating that the Bible... See more Just to make sure: your problem is that the Bible translations available are different in a way that undermines the speaker's argument?
I faced this issue frequently when I translated a spiritual book from Romanian into Hungarian, and the available HU Bible translations did not always deliver the desired meaning. This happens in other languages too.
In agreement with the publisher, our solution was to add a translator's note somewhere on the first pages, stating that the Bible translations used were from this or that source, except for certain verses where the translator's own translation was used. So wherever the available Bible translations couldn't deliver the desired meaning, we, the translators, provided our own rendering.
I think Christine's throughts are very helpful, and you could use the verb "walk", offering your own translation of *this* specific Bible verse with a proper translator's note. I don't think this is "unethical", spiritual authors/speakers don't always quote the Bible literally anyway. ▲ Collapse
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"Enter into the Ark"
works both ways...
| | | | Allison Wright (X)
Portugal
Local time: 06:03
| Translation into German | Dec 18, 2012 |
Steve Kerry wrote:
"Enter into the Ark"
works both ways...
I had a similar suggestion, "Get into the Ark". But then, I cancelled my post. Translation direction is En->De.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 13:03
Chinese to English
| The problem with a creationist argument is lexical?! | Dec 18, 2012 |
It's a fascinating translation problem. However, I'm guessing that this lexical issue isn't going to be the only logical disconnect in a talk which tries to convince people that a particular set of legends are really true.
I think your only option is to choose one or the other and just let it stand as a wrong argument. After all, it's wrong for plenty of other reasons, too! Personally, I would choose to follow my client over the Bible, and would use an equivalent for "come"; but it ... See more It's a fascinating translation problem. However, I'm guessing that this lexical issue isn't going to be the only logical disconnect in a talk which tries to convince people that a particular set of legends are really true.
I think your only option is to choose one or the other and just let it stand as a wrong argument. After all, it's wrong for plenty of other reasons, too! Personally, I would choose to follow my client over the Bible, and would use an equivalent for "come"; but it could depend on the translation decisions you've made elsewhere in the text.
Incidentally, this is one of the things I love about translation. When you try to translate an argument, find that it doesn't work in the other language, and thus winkle out conceptual flaws that you never noticed before. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 08:03
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
| This guy is wrong | Dec 18, 2012 |
Geh in die Arche, du, deine Söhne, deine Frau und die Frauen deiner Söhne! Von allem, was lebt, von allen Wesen aus Fleisch, führe je zwei in die Arche, damit sie mit dir am Leben bleiben; je ein Männchen und ein Weibchen sollen es sein. (Einheitsübersetzung).
This thought that god was in the ark is plain silly. I would just put the official German translation and let the reader decide.
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Heike Holthaus
United States
Local time: 01:03
Member (2012)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Adding the source text in parentheses | Dec 18, 2012 |
Since these are subtitles, there isn't much room to expound. So I decided to add the Version of the Bible that was used. to a literal translation.
The fact that the translators of the German version chose to use "geh" (go) instead of "come", does not make the thought, that God was in the ark with Noah silly. In our quest to understand the meaning of biblical text, we will inadvertantly come to wrong conclusions, because we are often reading the translation of a translation (hebrew -... See more Since these are subtitles, there isn't much room to expound. So I decided to add the Version of the Bible that was used. to a literal translation.
The fact that the translators of the German version chose to use "geh" (go) instead of "come", does not make the thought, that God was in the ark with Noah silly. In our quest to understand the meaning of biblical text, we will inadvertantly come to wrong conclusions, because we are often reading the translation of a translation (hebrew - latin - german/english). The depth of the hebrew/aramaic language is absolutely amazing and beautiful and will never be fully conveyed in any other language, if even the translator understands the cultural/historical context. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 07:03
Italian to English
In memoriam | Comings and goings | Dec 18, 2012 |
There seems to be a slight confusion in the logic here.
"Come" means to move towards something, and often that "something" is the speaker, but the implied spatial POV is by no means always the speaker's. When you write that we will "come to wrong conclusions", the metaphor is spatial but doesn't necessarily imply that the wrong conclusions are close to you in any sense.
I had a look at the Septuagint translation and the verb used there is είσελθε, which is formed... See more There seems to be a slight confusion in the logic here.
"Come" means to move towards something, and often that "something" is the speaker, but the implied spatial POV is by no means always the speaker's. When you write that we will "come to wrong conclusions", the metaphor is spatial but doesn't necessarily imply that the wrong conclusions are close to you in any sense.
I had a look at the Septuagint translation and the verb used there is είσελθε, which is formed from a preposition meaning "into" and the verb "to come" and is translated elsewhere in the AV as "enter".
AFAICS there is no real problem with the AV translation so long as we remember that the referent for "come" is the ark and not the deity. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mark
Local time: 07:03
Italian to English
TranslatorHeike wrote:
1. I am changing the offical German translation of the Bible. The official version? Is there really an official version? I suspect not. At the most, a version may be viewed as official by some Germans (and probably heretical by others).
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