Edward Plaisance Jr Nov 27, 2012:

general comment on "expediency" As a native speaker of English, I find that "expediency" is generally not a good translation for صلاح/مصلحت ...it just doesn't feel right, in most cases.

This situation here is a good example. See Dictionary.com where you will find
2. a regard for what is politic or advantageous rather than for what is right or just; a sense of self-interest.
2. the use of or inclination towards methods that are advantageous rather than fair or just

Especially in theological discussion where someone is trying to explain God's thinking, "expedient/expediency" just isn't the right vocabulary item to describe God's behavior.

It seems that no matter how or where we use these words, they always have that connotation expressed in the two definitions above and I don't think God behaves in that way.

majidsh (asker) Nov 27, 2012:

Thanks a lot, Edward.

Edward Plaisance Jr Nov 27, 2012:

I was away for several hours... 1. رعایت صلاح بندگان : Looking out for his creatures/servants
2. صلاح او را می دانست: Knew what was best for him/ knew his best interests
3. مصلحت بینی: I personally think that "justification" works best here...we could also use "this course of action"

majidsh (asker) Nov 26, 2012:

Profuse thanks!

Zeynab Tajik Nov 26, 2012:

Here are my suggestions: 1. رعایت صلاح بندگان : Serving to promote people's interest/expediency
2. صلاح او را می دانست: Knew what was best for him/ knew his best interests
3. مصلحت بینی: this deeming as expedient/ serving of interests
No difference between expediency & interest.
http://www.majlesekhobregan.ir/fa/publications/mags/is_gv/ma...
Good Luck :)

majidsh (asker) Nov 26, 2012:

Dear Zeynab and Edward, Many thanks for your nice explanation. I've added some more text, please let me know your suggestion, now.
Regards

majidsh (asker) Nov 26, 2012:

some more sentences of the text مى‏نويسد سبب برگشتن ابو الحسن اشعرى از استاد اين شد كه روزى از وى پرسيد: آيا رعايت صلاح بندگان بر خدا واجب است يا نه؟ ابو على گفت: آرى، پرسيد: چه مى‏گويى درباره سه نفر از اطفالى كه كافر زاده باشند خداى تعالى يكى از آن‏ها را قبل از بلوغ و پاى گذاشتن به دايره تكليف قبض روح كند و دو نفر ديگر را زنده نگه دارد آن گاه يكى از آن دو نفر مسلمان بشود و مطيع فرمان‏هاى الهى و ديگرى كافر گردد و گناه كار، حكم و احوال اين سه برادر در قيامت به چه نحو خواهد بود؟ ابو على گفت: آن كه مسلمان شد اهل بهشت است و آن كه كافر زيست جايش دوزخ است و آن كه پيش از بلوغ مرد نه در بهشت است و نه در دوزخ. ابو الحسن گفت: آن كه پيش از بلوغ مرده است هر گاه بگويد: خدايا! اگر مرا زنده نگه مى‏داشتى من به تو ايمان آورده و امروز در بهشت از نعمت‏هاى بهشتى بهره‏مند بودم، خداى تعالى به او چه جواب خواهد داد؟ابو على گفت: او نمى‏داند شايد اگر زنده مى‏ماند كافر مى‏شد و به جهنم مى‏رفت، خداى تعالى صلاح او را مى‏دانست كه او را پيش از بلوغ قبض روح كرد. ابو الحسن گفت: اين مصلحت بينى را چرا تنها درباره يكى از آن سه نفر كرد و درباره آن كه كافر مرد نكرد؟ ابو على از جواب عاجز ماند

Zeynab Tajik Nov 26, 2012:

:D
YES! :)))

Edward Plaisance Jr Nov 26, 2012:

To Zeynab... If the other places in the text have the same meaning, yes. However, I was assuming that the other occurrences of صلاح were different.

Anyhow, I think we have explained this one to death :)

Zeynab Tajik Nov 26, 2012:

To Edward, I doubt that in talking about death, using "advantageous" or "advisable" would be a good option. Considering the context, I liked what you suggested "knowing what was best for " or even Ehsan's (minus"at heart").

Edward Plaisance Jr Nov 26, 2012:

صلاح as "expediency" We don't have the other text here, but I somewhat doubt that this is the best translation for the other instances. I am guessing that "advantageous/suitable/advisable" would be better.

Zeynab Tajik Nov 26, 2012:

yes... Yes! Exactly! I noticed that it may be confusing. However, I used his own suggested sentence only to apply the term. Yea... It is better to clarify it by using that boy's name or whatever...
:) Thanks again.

Edward Plaisance Jr Nov 26, 2012:

comment... If you want to use "expediency" here, I would recommend:
"Considering it expedient, God took..."

HOWEVER, it is NOT a good choice...it does not convey the concept of صلاح کسی را دانستن which means "to know what is best for someone"

Zeynab's suggestion is good, but it has a grammatical problem...when we use participial constructions like "knowing his best interests, (subject)(verb)..." the participial phrase modifies the (subject)...that is, in this sentence it means "knowing God's interests, God took...."

We can modify the sentence in several ways...one is to say: "knowing (xxx's) best interests, God took...." where we add the person's name (=xxx).

or: "knowing what was best for (xxx), God took...."

I hope this explanation is not too confusing...if it is, let me know and I will try to explain it in another way.

Zeynab Tajik Nov 26, 2012:

... considering the fact that the subject is 'God', I recommend you to put it this way:
"Knowing his best interests, God .... "

Zeynab Tajik Nov 26, 2012:

Dear Majid I think it is better to use an idiomatic term, since the source term, itself, is idiomatic. Moreover, 'expediency' does not fit here! I have seen 'for expediency reasons.' or ' it is expedient for someone to...'; NOT 'to know s.th as someone's expediency'! It seems too Persian! Isn't it?

majidsh (asker) Nov 26, 2012:

As I used 'expediency' for the word صلاح in the previous sentences of the text, shall I render this sentence in this way:
"knowing it as his expediency, God took his life prior to entering puberty"
Dose it seem natural?
Many thanks