Jun 11, 2020 16:18
3 yrs ago
72 viewers *
French term
infirmer le jugement en ce qu'il a ...
French to English
Tech/Engineering
Automotive / Cars & Trucks
Successional settlement.
Never quite clear about this construction. Its general meaning seems to be "because"... but it also poses a problem regarding its inclusivity sometimes:
"Infirmer le jugement en ce qu'il a supprimé les astreintes ordonnées les 29 mars 2015 et 31 avril 2015;"
... "set aside the judgment because "... but it is also the case that the judgment in question judged other things. I believe therefore, though I'm not sure, that it is implying that this particular provision of the judgment must be set aside, without implying that the entire judgment should be set aside. If so, how to express this? Is there such as thing as a "partial set aside" of a judgment?
"Infirmer en toutes ses dispositions le jugement entrepris rendu par le tribunal de grande instance de PARIS, en ce qu'il a principalement jugé que XXX avait, à la date de son décès, élu domicile en Grande Bretagne et désigné en conséquence pour régir sa succession mobilière la loi anglaise ... "
... here "en toutes ses dispositions" means they're seeking to have the entire judgment set aside. Tending perhaps to confirm my above hypothesis: if "toutes dispositions" is missing, only certain dispositions are targeted.
"Infirmer le jugement entrepris en ce qu'il a supprimé les astreintes ordonnées et leur liquidation par le juge de la mise en état du tribunal de grande instance de PARIS,"
"Confirmer le jugement du 23 juin 2016 en ce qu'il a :
. déclaré irrecevable l'exception d'incompétence;
. supprimé les astreintes décidées par ordonnances des ...
. révoqué la condamnation de YYY à verser chacune à ZZZ une somme de 000 000€ en liquidation d'astreinte;
"
This seems to be an exhortation to confirm a listed (limited) set of provisions of the judgment. Implicitly therefore to the exclusion of others which are not listed?
Never quite clear about this construction. Its general meaning seems to be "because"... but it also poses a problem regarding its inclusivity sometimes:
"Infirmer le jugement en ce qu'il a supprimé les astreintes ordonnées les 29 mars 2015 et 31 avril 2015;"
... "set aside the judgment because "... but it is also the case that the judgment in question judged other things. I believe therefore, though I'm not sure, that it is implying that this particular provision of the judgment must be set aside, without implying that the entire judgment should be set aside. If so, how to express this? Is there such as thing as a "partial set aside" of a judgment?
"Infirmer en toutes ses dispositions le jugement entrepris rendu par le tribunal de grande instance de PARIS, en ce qu'il a principalement jugé que XXX avait, à la date de son décès, élu domicile en Grande Bretagne et désigné en conséquence pour régir sa succession mobilière la loi anglaise ... "
... here "en toutes ses dispositions" means they're seeking to have the entire judgment set aside. Tending perhaps to confirm my above hypothesis: if "toutes dispositions" is missing, only certain dispositions are targeted.
"Infirmer le jugement entrepris en ce qu'il a supprimé les astreintes ordonnées et leur liquidation par le juge de la mise en état du tribunal de grande instance de PARIS,"
"Confirmer le jugement du 23 juin 2016 en ce qu'il a :
. déclaré irrecevable l'exception d'incompétence;
. supprimé les astreintes décidées par ordonnances des ...
. révoqué la condamnation de YYY à verser chacune à ZZZ une somme de 000 000€ en liquidation d'astreinte;
"
This seems to be an exhortation to confirm a listed (limited) set of provisions of the judgment. Implicitly therefore to the exclusion of others which are not listed?
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+3
6 mins
Eliza Hall
United States
United States
Native in English
United States
Lawyer-Translator-Certified Interpreter
Native in: English (Variants: US, Scottish, Canadian, Irish, British, UK)
Works in: French to English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
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4
Selected
vacate the judgment to the extent that it...
On appeal, a judgment can be affirmed or vacated in whole or in part. That's true everywhere that I know of, specifically including France: https://justice.ooreka.fr/astuce/voir/571241/infirmer-un-jug...
If it's partial, the court will specify what aspects of the judgment below are being affirmed (or vacated). For instance, "The judgment is vacated to the extent that it ordered X and Y..." means that X and Y are vacated, but anything else that the judgment did still stands.
Sometimes even when the judgment is affirmed or vacated in its entirety, the appeals court will spell out exactly what it is affirming/vacating, just for clarity.
If it's partial, the court will specify what aspects of the judgment below are being affirmed (or vacated). For instance, "The judgment is vacated to the extent that it ordered X and Y..." means that X and Y are vacated, but anything else that the judgment did still stands.
Sometimes even when the judgment is affirmed or vacated in its entirety, the appeals court will spell out exactly what it is affirming/vacating, just for clarity.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Adrian MM.
: The asker - using the term of set aside for 'infirmer' - is unlikely to be vacationing in the UK where, less incongruously, only registered land entries and mortgages are 'vacated'.
9 mins
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Set aside words too (set aside the judgment to the extent that...).
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| neutral |
Francois Boye
: in that
31 mins
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MrRafe has explained what's wrong with "in that," I can't top his explanation, so see below :)
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| agree |
mrrafe
: A thousand judgments are "vacated" every day in USA, before lunch! Asker is correct that "in that" can mean "because," but Eliza's interpretation is right in every case unless the "because" is the judge's reason (very unlikely) or their syntax is bad.
1 hr
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Thanks. That's exactly what's wrong with "in that," thanks for expressing it so clearly.
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| agree |
Tony M
: I believe this is the right sense, though for EN-GB I would certainly eschew 'vacate'
5 hrs
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Set aside, overturn, reverse, any synonym works, as long as the rest says "to the extent that it..."
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| agree |
Daryo
: in UK it would be "overturned"
7 hrs
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Sure. Any synonym for "reversing the judgment" works, as long as it's a word courts actually use (i.e., not "invalidate" or any other literal translation).
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| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: UK terminology demands 'overturn' or 'set aside' but never 'vacate'
2 days 3 mins
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks. "overturned" for me ... "
+3
2 hrs
overturn the decision in so far as it...
Hello
We don't know if this is English GB or US or what but I particularly like "overturn" as it can be used for most English varieties.
By the same token, I particularly hate "vacate" as it is unnecessary Legalese ("vacate" is not used in its normal sense) and it only covers one English language variant
We don't know if this is English GB or US or what but I particularly like "overturn" as it can be used for most English varieties.
By the same token, I particularly hate "vacate" as it is unnecessary Legalese ("vacate" is not used in its normal sense) and it only covers one English language variant
Reference:
https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/legal-updates/high-court-insolvency-proceedings-date
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Tony M
: I believe you have the right idea with 'insofar as it...'
3 hrs
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You agreed with Eliza while 'eschewing' vacate but you hesitate with "overturn" ? So maybe "overrule"?
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| disagree |
Daryo
: point of method: what would be "unnecessary Legalese" in a legal document??? Sure, why not turn technical specifications into poesy? Or fill medical texts with terms from theology? BTW the intended audience expects legalese, nothing else.
4 hrs
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But didn't you say in your agree to Elisa that in the UK, the RIGHT answer would be... "overturn"?!?!?!
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| agree |
Michael Grabczan-Grabowski
: I disagree with Daryo's unfounded comment. Obscurantism (particularly if regional) should be avoided as much as possible. You can communicate the same concepts using plain language. I've worked with enough pompous legal texts to know how they can confuse.
5 hrs
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Thanks. Daryo and Eliza don't understand that ultimately, legal decisions are for the parties -litigation- and the people -law-.
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
2 days 3 hrs
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Thanks AllegroTrans
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| agree |
ph-b (X)
: Wouldn't know whether "vacate" is OK or not, but your answer is correct. PS: ...insofar as... ? PPS: Sorry for the edit. Too early on Monday morning.
3 days 12 hrs
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Thanks Ph-b: I'm happy to see that "in so far as" is generally accepted as a viable solution
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-2
2 hrs
Michael Grabczan-Grabowski
Canada
Canada
Native in English
Canada
Affordable. High Quality. Native English
Native in: English (Variants: US, Australian, Canadian, New Zealand, British, UK, South African)
Works in: Spanish to English, French to English, Polish to English
the ruling is partially overturned in that ... // the ruling is overturned, thereby waiving ...
I see what you mean about en ce qu'il a, because "partially overturning a ruling" in French should be directly translated as infirmer partiellement un jugement.
However, things can be phrased in different ways, and you already noted that the phrase in French does not preclude rulings that are partially set aside at times.
Besides the other possible answers already given, here is my option:
In a context where a ruling is clearly partially overturned, I would translate it as such (partially overturned), whereas in cases where it mentions rulings being overturned entirely, I would phrase it as "The ruling is overturned, thereby waiving the payment obligations ..."
My attempt at translating your first sentence would be as follows:
The ruling is partially overturned in that the payment obligations imposed on 29 March 2015 and 31 April 2015 are waived.
And, alternatively:
The ruling is overturned, thereby waiving the obligations imposed on 29 March 2015 and 31 April 2015.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2020-06-11 19:10:02 GMT)
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Here are some examples of the use of the expression "partially overturned":
https://www.bipc.com/district-court’s-decision-on-conflict-minerals-partially-overturned-by-court-of-appeals;-sec-stays-portion-of-rule-determined-to-violate-first-amendment-right-to-free-speech;-remainder-of-rule-will-continue-to-be-implemented
https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/labor-law-update-new-union...
However, things can be phrased in different ways, and you already noted that the phrase in French does not preclude rulings that are partially set aside at times.
Besides the other possible answers already given, here is my option:
In a context where a ruling is clearly partially overturned, I would translate it as such (partially overturned), whereas in cases where it mentions rulings being overturned entirely, I would phrase it as "The ruling is overturned, thereby waiving the payment obligations ..."
My attempt at translating your first sentence would be as follows:
The ruling is partially overturned in that the payment obligations imposed on 29 March 2015 and 31 April 2015 are waived.
And, alternatively:
The ruling is overturned, thereby waiving the obligations imposed on 29 March 2015 and 31 April 2015.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2020-06-11 19:10:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Here are some examples of the use of the expression "partially overturned":
https://www.bipc.com/district-court’s-decision-on-conflict-minerals-partially-overturned-by-court-of-appeals;-sec-stays-portion-of-rule-determined-to-violate-first-amendment-right-to-free-speech;-remainder-of-rule-will-continue-to-be-implemented
https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/labor-law-update-new-union...
Note from asker:
| Thanks... I think the expression "partially overturn" is probably right. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Adrian MM.
1 hr
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Much obliged, sir!
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| disagree |
Tony M
: I remain unconvinced by your 'thereby' — I still feel this is much closer to Asker's 'because', and Eliza's 'to the extent that' seems to me the right way round.
2 hrs
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Fair enough. My thought was that if a ruling is overturned in its entirety, then all obligations from said ruling are waived as a result. I thought that saying "The ruling is overturned in that the obligations imposed ... are waived" sounded a bit odd.
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| disagree |
Daryo
: I don't think you'll find any decision on appeal that is "waiving" anything. "Waiving" can be done only by s.o. who's got some rights and won't enforce them - no one owes anything to the judges but to the other party.
4 hrs
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Reversed, then? What about the rest of my answer, or are you only focusing on that particular word?
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| disagree |
Eliza Hall
: "Waiving" isn't in in the VF and isn't relevant here. Also, the VF doesn't say "partially overturned"; it says "overturned to the extent that..." Do not put words in the judge's mouth.
1 day 21 hrs
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About waiving: I agree. The rest: there is rarely only one way to translate something. If a judge makes a decision to effectively partially overturn a decision, then one can communicate this in a way that helps more people to understand (my goal).
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-4
3 hrs
Rocsana Guignaudeau
France
France
France
IT and Tourism specialist, Journalist
Native in: Romanian 
Works in: French to Romanian, Romanian to French, English to Romanian, and 6 more.
Overturn the ruling in that to...
Look at the "Linguee" examples concerning the "Infirmer le jugement" in a juridical context.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Tony M
: But the real problem here is 'en ce qu'il a ...', and your suggestion fails to give a meaningfuly answer to that element.
1 hr
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| disagree |
Daryo
: 'Look at the "Linguee" examples' is not a reference - which one exactly in the heap of irrelevant search results usually thrown at you by "linguee" is supposed to be "THE (convincing) reference"?
3 hrs
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| disagree |
SafeTex
: "overturn" was already up and "in that to" is ungrammatical.
6 hrs
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| disagree |
AllegroTrans
: 'in that to...' is ungrammatical
3 days 22 mins
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-3
5 hrs
Lisa Rosengard
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
experienced and well qualified linguist
Native in: English (Variant: UK)
Works in: Spanish to English, English, Spanish, and 3 more.
to invalidate the decision / sentence / judgement on that which he has ..
The verb used to translate 'infirmer' is 'to invalidate' while 'en ce qu'il a ..' means 'on that which he has ..' or 'in what he has..'.
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Note added at 1 day 10 mins (2020-06-12 16:28:59 GMT)
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"Infirmer le jugement en ce qu'il a supprimé les astreintes ordonnées.."
"To invalidate the decision in which the ordered (ordained) constraints have been suppressed..."
I quote definitions (Collins Robert French-English English-French), Harper Collins publisher 2002)
"infirmer" = "to invalidate" or "to quash"
"le jugement" = "the decision" / "the sentence" / "the judgement"
"In the above example quote from the source text information "il" refers to the tribunal.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 10 mins (2020-06-12 16:28:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
"Infirmer le jugement en ce qu'il a supprimé les astreintes ordonnées.."
"To invalidate the decision in which the ordered (ordained) constraints have been suppressed..."
I quote definitions (Collins Robert French-English English-French), Harper Collins publisher 2002)
"infirmer" = "to invalidate" or "to quash"
"le jugement" = "the decision" / "the sentence" / "the judgement"
"In the above example quote from the source text information "il" refers to the tribunal.
Example sentence:
To invalidate the decision on that which he has suppressed the ordered (ordained) constraints
Infirmer le jugement en ce qu'il a supprimé les asteintes ordonnées
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Tony M
: 1) That doesn't actually make sense in EN; 2) that is not at all what the FR means!
24 mins
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| neutral |
Michael Grabczan-Grabowski
: Literal, word-for-word translations often don't make much sense, and it's always necessary to look at the context at hand. Decisions made by judges aren't normally "invalidated" but rather "overturned" or "reversed." There is no "he" in this case either.
44 mins
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Decisions made by judges are not normally invalidated, overturned or reversed, because once a decision has been made it would normally take effect with permanence. In the case "il" refers to the tribunal.
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| disagree |
SafeTex
: Your example sentence "To invalidate the decision on that which he has suppressed the ordered (ordained) constraints" is yet another complete mishmash. And who is "he"? The judgement or are you assuming a male judge ???
10 hrs
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He 'il' refers to the tribunal.
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| disagree |
Eliza Hall
: "He"? What? EN does not use gendered pronouns to refer to courts. Also, your phrase doesn't make sense, and "on which it has" isn't at all the meaning.
1 day 18 hrs
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-2
1 day 22 hrs
Lisa Rosengard
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
experienced and well qualified linguist
Native in: English (Variant: UK)
Works in: Spanish to English, English, Spanish, and 3 more.
to invalidate the decision on which it has ...
"I believe that this particular provision of the judgement must be set aside, without implying that the entire judgement should be set aside." (Entry Mpoma)
"To invalidate a decision is the duty of a Court of Appeal (Tribunal) to carry out with entire judicial authority. Yet the given information can be partial, in this case the remaining judgement is still with-held." For example: "The decision will be confirmed on this point, it will be invalidated on the basis that this regulation will intervene."
"Infirmer un jugement, c'est pour une Court d'Appel le dépouiller la toute autorité juridique. Mais l'information peut-être partielle, dans ce cas le reste du jugement est alors maintenu." Par exemple: "Le jugement sera confirmé sur ce point, il sera infirmé en ce cas que cette régularisation devra intervenir."
"To invalidate a decision is the duty of a Court of Appeal (Tribunal) to carry out with entire judicial authority. Yet the given information can be partial, in this case the remaining judgement is still with-held." For example: "The decision will be confirmed on this point, it will be invalidated on the basis that this regulation will intervene."
"Infirmer un jugement, c'est pour une Court d'Appel le dépouiller la toute autorité juridique. Mais l'information peut-être partielle, dans ce cas le reste du jugement est alors maintenu." Par exemple: "Le jugement sera confirmé sur ce point, il sera infirmé en ce cas que cette régularisation devra intervenir."
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Tony M
: Your explanations are valid, but your suggestions has still got it all the wrong way round.
16 mins
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| disagree |
Eliza Hall
: "On which it has" isn't at all the meaning here.
41 mins
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Discussion
Are you getting your suggestion completely "overturned" by Daryo cos he doesn't agree with any part of your suggestion or are you getting your suggestion completely "overturned" although he only disagrees with one small part? :)
Regards
Obviously, if ALL individual points are overturned one by one, then there would nothing left, and in that case only the whole judgment would be overturned.
BTW even in not-legal documents. the meaning would be basically the same.
There must a lot of decisions from various Appeal Courts available online that are only partially confirming / overturning decisions from lower instances - the right terminology and the usual sentence structure are there.
Michael GG's answer is pretty much committed to this interpretation. To be clear: if this is correct, "infirmer le jugement [en ce que...]" does not mean that the judgment itself is set aside.
I saw Daryo's recent post with French examples but did not understand how he wants to translate them.
Thanks
Two of our colleagues seem to be reading it the same way as I, and the others, the opposite.
Shoehorning "in that" into the phrase is probably impossible. I would qualify this as a FR legal idiom. Care to add this as an answer?
=
infirmer / confirmer la partie du jugement du ... qui [+énoncé d'une des décisions dans le jugement]