Jan 25, 2009 01:09
15 yrs ago
Russian term
ставил задачей отомстить грядущим поколениям
Russian to English
Art/Literary
Poetry & Literature
literary history
I promise this is the last Dostoevsky question for today.
Как я понимаю, возможно и ставить что-то кому-то, и отомстить кому-то... So I can't understand what Dostoevsky did-- did he set this task to future generations? That seems nonsensical. So to whom did he assign this mission? Себе, что ли?
Here's the context:
[Достоевский] ставил задачей отомстить грядущим поколениям за "грехи" и "заблуждения" своей молодости.
Как я понимаю, возможно и ставить что-то кому-то, и отомстить кому-то... So I can't understand what Dostoevsky did-- did he set this task to future generations? That seems nonsensical. So to whom did he assign this mission? Себе, что ли?
Here's the context:
[Достоевский] ставил задачей отомстить грядущим поколениям за "грехи" и "заблуждения" своей молодости.
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+1
1 hr
Selected
set out to punish future generations for...
Mark has already answered the question of who's taking vengeance on whom, but I would like to suggest a translation in a different register - without "made it his mission" or "wreak [or even 'exact'] vengeance."
"Now he set out to punish future generations for the 'sins' and 'aberrations' of his own youth."
Once again, it helps to look not only at the rest of the sentence, but at the whole paragraph, and also to think about what was going on in the mind of this Soviet critic in (let us not forget) the late 1940s, whose job was to trash these other writers who had put something out that was too favorable to Dostoevsky. Here's the passage:
Из каторги Достоевский вынес страстную вражду к материализму, к демократии, к социализму. Конечно, он не мог забыть сороковые годы и непрестанно возвращался к ним, но всегда как враг, как изменник сознающий свою измену. Он ставил задачей отомстить грядущим поколениям за "грехи" и "заблуждения" своей молодости. Он избрал теперь все передовое, прогрессивное, чтобы именно на нем примерять своего Голядкина.
http://www.oldgazette.ru/kshizn/20121947/text3.html
If you skim through the whole article, as I did, you see that the author considers "Двойник" to be the work in which Dostoevsky let it all hang out - and betrayed the leftist, quasi-materialist (seen as a virtue by the author, of course) tendencies of his youth.
What I really want to suggest is "take it out on," but "...decided to take the 'sins' and 'aberrations' of his own youth out on future generations" is too awkward. I think introducing "to punish" would be OK.
"Now he set out to punish future generations for the 'sins' and 'aberrations' of his own youth."
Once again, it helps to look not only at the rest of the sentence, but at the whole paragraph, and also to think about what was going on in the mind of this Soviet critic in (let us not forget) the late 1940s, whose job was to trash these other writers who had put something out that was too favorable to Dostoevsky. Here's the passage:
Из каторги Достоевский вынес страстную вражду к материализму, к демократии, к социализму. Конечно, он не мог забыть сороковые годы и непрестанно возвращался к ним, но всегда как враг, как изменник сознающий свою измену. Он ставил задачей отомстить грядущим поколениям за "грехи" и "заблуждения" своей молодости. Он избрал теперь все передовое, прогрессивное, чтобы именно на нем примерять своего Голядкина.
http://www.oldgazette.ru/kshizn/20121947/text3.html
If you skim through the whole article, as I did, you see that the author considers "Двойник" to be the work in which Dostoevsky let it all hang out - and betrayed the leftist, quasi-materialist (seen as a virtue by the author, of course) tendencies of his youth.
What I really want to suggest is "take it out on," but "...decided to take the 'sins' and 'aberrations' of his own youth out on future generations" is too awkward. I think introducing "to punish" would be OK.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
The Misha
: I loved the explanation, Rachel, and I can appreciate the different angle. However, the original does say отомстить, rather than наказать. Are we at liberty to change that?
2 hrs
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Why not? It's not a horrible offense against the meaning, in this context. I think the best wd be "to take out on," but I couldn't figure out how to make it not sound awkward. I think "take vengeance on" wd sound ridiculously overblown in this paragraph.
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neutral |
Alexandra Taggart
: I do not know what kind of standards you put for English.You have not noticed these "yah-s","yoh-s" and "ot-s" in some answers on the site.Demand literacy and elegance from everyone then.Anyway, thanks for comments on my hotheadedness, I will remember.
4 hrs
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1) Your comment is irrelevant to the version I suggested. Others suggested the literal translation of отомстить. I suggested departing from it. 2) On what grounds do you represent yourself as a native speaker of English?
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agree |
Armida Alvandyan
1 day 5 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "I agree with you and I like the phrasing. Wreak vengeance is so violent in implications that the meaning was lost. Thanks."
+3
11 mins
made it his mission to wreak vengeance on the future generations
This phrasing is not at all uncommon and always refers to the individual in question, unless explicitly specified otherwise.
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Note added at 12 mins (2009-01-25 01:21:59 GMT)
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'exact' vengeance would be even better.
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Note added at 15 mins (2009-01-25 01:25:08 GMT)
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I think the 'vengeance' in question is his writing. Он мстит by having them read his works, which I presume are rich with the "грехи" и "заблуждения" его молодости.
That's my interpretation. Whatever it may be, though, the phrasing leaves no doubt as to who's doing the actual avenging.
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Note added at 18 mins (2009-01-25 01:27:33 GMT)
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With questions like this, my pleasure :) I'm curious to see how others interpret it.
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Note added at 12 mins (2009-01-25 01:21:59 GMT)
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'exact' vengeance would be even better.
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Note added at 15 mins (2009-01-25 01:25:08 GMT)
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I think the 'vengeance' in question is his writing. Он мстит by having them read his works, which I presume are rich with the "грехи" и "заблуждения" его молодости.
That's my interpretation. Whatever it may be, though, the phrasing leaves no doubt as to who's doing the actual avenging.
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Note added at 18 mins (2009-01-25 01:27:33 GMT)
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With questions like this, my pleasure :) I'm curious to see how others interpret it.
Note from asker:
Thanks very much! |
Peer comment(s):
agree |
koundelev
: I like the wirding but not the article. Just Google "on the future generations" and "on future generations" - it's impressive...
52 mins
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Thank you, George. You're right, the article isn't necessary.
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agree |
Tevah_Trans
: Yeah, I'd be mad too! (about the article)
4 hrs
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Gracias, Tevah. The guy's new to Kudoz, so I'm not really mad. Just laying out some unofficial ground rules :)
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neutral |
Alexandra Taggart
: What about Dostoevsky, who is able to judge?
5 hrs
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All your base are belong to us, yes?
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agree |
Oxana Snyder
: The Russian sentence is very confusing: Dostoevsky wanted to revenge future generations for smth HE DID? But that's what it says... And it is the only interpretation I can think of
16 hrs
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Thank you, Oxana. The backstory obviously has some... complications, as is often the case with this author.
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23 mins
made it his mission to wreak vengeance upon future generations
It's simply a matter of the standard English practice of leaving out the direct article in plural ( that is, not "the future generations" but "future generations"). Plus, there's a certain Biblical (King James) sound to it the fragment offered up in question.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Mark Berelekhis
: You feel it's perfectly OK to take someone else's answer, substitute two letters and present it as your own? Kudos to you, then!
27 mins
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neutral |
The Misha
: You may be right or wrong with this "the" issue, thank God in English article usage in this case would be largely a matter of context and personal preference. Mark is right though, this particular distinction wouldn't merit a separate answer.
3 hrs
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neutral |
Alexandra Taggart
: Of course, the question is Biblical as are ALL questions Dostoyevsky put for humanity.
5 hrs
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4 hrs
to take his "sins" and "errors" out on the future generations
Just an option, but I like Mark's, too.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Rachel Douglas
: My, my, we are certainly into repeating suggestions in the responses to this question. You can't omit "of his own youth"; put that back in, with "to take out," and see if you can make it sound not too awkward to publish. / No worries, just wondering.
27 mins
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Sorry Rachel, I hadn't read your whole list of notes before posting an answer. That was my mistake, and please accept my sincere aplologies.
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neutral |
Alexandra Taggart
: What is suggested? To interpret Dostoyevsky's words or to translate the context written by a Soviet critic?
1 hr
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I have no idea what you've just said.
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6 hrs
You should understand the sentence straight:"everything is possible, think about the highest judge".
Dostoevsky classify people as two; ordinary people and extra ordinary people. Ordinary people are supposed to follow law and live as normal citizens. The extra ordinary people have a right to commit any crime and to transgress the law in any way. They only need the permission of their consciousness. (Here Dostoevsky is not referring to all the crimes, but the crimes for the good.) If they are successful in this endures, the society will treat them as saviors. If they fail they will be treated as criminals. The powerful take the law in their hand and kill innocents and preach for peace and cry for humanity.
If you step aside from the words were said by Dostoyevsky - and you can easily come to wrong conclusions. Myself, I would not dare.
If you step aside from the words were said by Dostoyevsky - and you can easily come to wrong conclusions. Myself, I would not dare.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Oxana Snyder
: What does it have to do with the given sentence? What is your suggested translation then? With an explanation like this you probably confused the asker even more. At least I am very confused...
10 hrs
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I have answered the asker's question, I have not translated the context which I find inappropriate to the words of Dostoyevsky.
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Discussion