magnetotérmico omnipolar

11:33 Apr 17, 2011 

Actually, the discussion (I don't want to call it an arguement) between us was not about disconnecting the neutral, it was about whether the word "omnipolar" just means "affecting all poles" or whether it specifically refers to the type of CB that has active protection on all poles, eg, whether a "2P" CB is omnipolar and a "1P+N" CB is not. I haven't found any really clear info on this, but I notice that many Google hits on "omnipolar circuit breaker" (without the quotes) say they must be used for kitchen appliances. My understanding is that anything with a heating element should be connected via a two-pole CB, since a short to earth in the heating element will trip the RCD ("diferencial") if you don't disconnect the neutral, leaving the whole house without electricity. But a normal 1P+N CB is all you need for this.

I also found this:

"1º El corte omnipolar incluye las fases y el neutro, pero la protección contra sobrecargas y cortocircuitos en el neutro no es preceptiva."

http://www.soloingenieria.net/foros/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=190...

09:08 Apr 17, 2011 

I was not sure that this is also used in English, but both pclew and I myself have found it (see reference below).

Whether the supply system requires breaking the neutral or not (which is the cause of the arguments between pclew and me), and taking into account that if, as I believe, the device you are dealing with is to be connected in the US (TN-C system) its wiring WILL HAVE to be without neutral line interruption. "OMNIPOLAR" obviates the discussion.

Sorry for not having thought it earlier - that would have saved quite a lot of [unnecessary] discussion.

23:28 Apr 16, 2011 

When is a 4 pole circuit breaker favored over a 3 pole circuit breaker?

Answer for USA, Canada and countries running a 60 Hz supply service.

I have never seen a four pole circuit breaker. Breakers are single, two and three pole. Single pole for 120 volts, two pole for 240 volts and three pole for three phase loads. In North America all neutrals are SN (solid neutrals) and are not switched.

Answer for countries in Europe and other world areas running a 50 Hz supply service.

In certain applications using a three phase Y-connected load, where complete isolation of the load from the supply is required, the neutral line connects to one pole of a 4 pole circuit breaker.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_is_a_4_pole_circuit_breaker_f...

This obviously applies to single phase too

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_is_a_4_pole_circuit_breaker_f...

22:16 Apr 16, 2011 

I truly appreciate the time and effort... I am going to follow your suggestion and use "omnipolar circuit breaker"

17:56 Apr 16, 2011 

@Lydia. I don't see any sure way to decide whether "omnipolar" in this text means an all-active-pole circuit breaker, as psicutrinius suggests, or simply means disconnecting all power lines, as I think. Perhaps you should just use "omnipolar circuit breaker", which seems to be reasonably common in English, see http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org....

17:50 Apr 16, 2011 

@psicutrinius: I understand the difference you've explained between a pole being active or not. The point I am trying to make is that I see no reason to suppose that this is what is meant by "omnipolar" in this text. Apart from the fact that I can't find any confirmation that "omnipolar" is used in Spanish to distinguish between the all-active and the one-inactive types of CB, we should also remember that this seems to be a questionable translation from German. It seems that in German, the word is "allpolige", and this is a very general word. Have a look at http://www.linguee.de/deutsch-englisch/uebersetzung/allpolig... , where "allpolige" is translated as meaning everthing from "complete shut-down" (allpolige Abschaltung) to "multi-line schematic" (allpoligen Schaltplänen), including "double-pole switch-off" and "all-pole disconnection".
It seems to me that these all-poles-protected CBs are very exotic items, it's difficult to imagine a situation in which you could have excess neutral current without having excess current in a phase. If Lydia uses your omnipolar definition, she will probably be telling users to find an unnecessary and very hard-to-find item.

14:57 Apr 16, 2011 

BUT OMNIPOLAR means that EVERY LINE must be protected by a PROTECTED (i.e., containing both thermal and magnetic relay) pole in the circuit breaker. That is, no associated switched neutral. That is, for a 3phase plus neutral a four pole mcb is required, and not a 3+N one (and for a single phase, a TWO [fully protected] POLE mcb, not a 1+N, is needed).

The nomenclature used in Spain uses "1+N" or 3+N" meaning that 1 or 3 poles are fully protected and the neutral is disconnected by a mechanically linked, but plain switch. This will also disconnect the neutral, but "omnipolar" means that ALL lines (neutral included in the proper case) are to be protected by an ACTIVE pole (no plain switch in the neutral).

14:38 Apr 16, 2011 

I notice this is a "manual de vitrinas". Are we talking about a refrigerated glass-front display unit, something like the meat counters in supermarkets? If so, it's going to be single phase, so "double-pole TMCB" could be used. Or, if in doubt, simply explain it: say something like "you should use a thermal magnetic circuit breaker that also disconnects the neutral line".

I feel that "omnipolar" here simply means that all lines, including the neutral, should be disconnected. I haven't seen any references indicating that it refers to active or passive poles in the CB. Psicutrinius' ref doesn´t mention this point, although it has a link to a selection guide (in "documents", and this lists both 3P+N and 4P types of four pole CBs, but it doesn't call them "omnipolar".

19:18 Apr 15, 2011 

No, there is no mention of rated voltage...

19:08 Apr 15, 2011 

Is there any mention of rated voltage for the device?. If 220 or 230V, it is single phase. Beyond this (380 or 415) it is three-phase

18:51 Apr 15, 2011 

Funny how initially I was just going to use 'circuit breaker', so I wasn't too far off. The context offers no other valuable information that would indicate single-phase, etc. The paragraph I posted is the all there is on the topic.

18:40 Apr 15, 2011 

This has gone awry and way beyond your question. Let's see:

"Circuit breaker" as makers' catalogues show, are all fitted with thermal-magnetic protection, thus you may say "circuit breaker", period (no need of adding thermal-magnetic), which addresses part of the question.

Now for "omnipolar": You can say, either "all pole protecting circuit breaker", which sounds weird to me (but remember that I am no native) or (Solomonic solution): If, somewhere within your original, you can discern whether the system is a single-phase plus neutral, you say "a two-pole circuit breaker"; if it is a three-phase plus neutral, you say "a four-pole circuit breaker".

18:25 Apr 15, 2011 

Very enlightening and useful info, but I still have doubts regarding correct translation. Does all-pole circuit breaker sound correct? Or am I missing the whole point? Thanks for your time and sharing of your extensive and impressive knowledge - it's electrifying!!!

18:09 Apr 15, 2011 

Yes, I meant exactly that (and by the way, I am glad to see that I wrote my answer at least barely clear enough, rather than FULLY clearly enough - I was not yet fully awake at the moment).

There are 3-pole+neutral and 1-pole+neutral mcb's, which means that one or three of them (the ones carrying the phase current) contain both an overcurrent (thermal) and a short-circuit (magnetic) protection, and that the neutral is just a plain switch, although it is mechanically linked to the others (all of them are mutually linked). See, for instance:

http://catalogo.hager.es/default?app=Catal&ac=15&ci=6&ni=215...

There are, of course, mcb's with full protection in every pole, including the neutral. The nomenclature as used in Spain is 1+ N, or 3 + N and bipolar or tetrapolar (meaning in the last case, two and four fully protected poles.

14:36 Apr 15, 2011 

@psicutrinius. I think we all agree that the idea here is that the CB should disconnect all power lines, including the neutral. However, you are suggesting more than that. If I understand you, by ACTIVE poles, you mean poles that have thermal and magnetic overcurrent detection elements in them, and that the neutral pole in a CB may or may not be equipped with these elements. Without them, the neutral pole is just a slave contact. If this is the case, then what the text is saying is that the all-active type of CB must be used, rather than the type with a slave contact on the neutral, so the translation would have to correctly indicate this. But are you sure that these two types of CB actually exist? I've never seen them, neither has a Spanish friend of mine who is an electrical engineer. And it's difficult to see how you would get excess neutral current without excess phase current. Also, how would the circuit be completed, if the neutral current is not returning through the phase? It would have to return through the ground, and that would trip the "diferencial" (RCD in English).

04:46 Apr 15, 2011 

...is Spain's Spanish for circuit breaker. "Omnipolar" is how the Codes of Practice (but only these) name the circuit breakers for all-pole cutting (three-pole CBs for a three-phase system, and four-pole for a three phase plus neutral system). Usually, ACTIVE poles are used for the phases and a switch only (which is tripped by them) for the neutral, in which case the CB is a 1+N (single phase) or a 3+N (three phase). "Omnipolar" means that the neutral is to be tripped also by an ACTIVE pole:

http://www.endesa.es/Portal/es/proveedores_2007/Normativa_20...

Desde luego, el "la" de "la esta máquina" sobra, y la "absorción mínima" debería ser "la intensidad nominal" o "la potencia" mínima

00:07 Apr 15, 2011 

This gives you an idea of what I am up against! The document is full of absurdities! I do believe the original was German. It's very difficult to 'guess' what it means and then translate it. Thanks for your insight!

23:58 Apr 14, 2011 

Lydia, assuming you've copied the text correctly, this paragraph is a real mess! It's the sort of thing I associate with manuals written in "English" by Chinese technicians. First, "magnetotérmico" is masculine, so "una" is wrong. Then, "para la esta máquina" is obviously wrong. Then, "la absorción" should be "el consumo", and there's no point in specifying the minimum consumption of an electrical machine, you need to know the maximum, so "mínimo" looks wring, too. The, "anticipating and adapting the insulation of the machine to an earth system" is absurd: by definition, insulation doesn't conduct electricity, so there's no point connecting it to anything, in fact., I don't think insulation can actually be "connected". And, finally, "clavijas" (plugs, not sockets), are attached to the power cable of the machine. Whether they are accessible or not is a question of where the socket is.
Also, I have never heard the expression "magnetotérmico omnipolar", and I notice that Edward's refs are all of German origin. Do you know if this machine uses single-phase or three-phase electricity? Could this be a faulty translation of a German document?