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Difference between Campground and Campsite
thresholds of sunrise and sunset as the bookends of life
Apr 29, 2023 17:27
1 yr ago
37 viewers *
English term

commitment

English Science Physics quantum physics
Dear colleagues,
I’m not sure about the meaning of “commitment” in the following passages about quantum physics: The passages are taken from a book about intraconnection by Daniel Siegel and is aimed at a general public.
I feel there may be different interpretations of the term "commitment" according to the passage, although it seems that "commitment" or "committed" might often mean "limitation" or "constraint" in many of the following contexts.
Thank you very much for any hint!

***********


And consider that mass – like this book you might be holding in your hand or the floor beneath your feet – is actually very dense energy. In the world of probability, “dense energy” means a commitment, a flow, of possibility into actuality. (Here it seems to me that “commitment” may mean “transformation”...)
***********

This means that even before our bodies were conceived, even before complex life forms evolved, there was the emergence of probability and certainty from possibility and uncertainty – form formed from a formless space of being, the sea of potential, into *** higher degrees of commitment, *** into form as certainty.

*****************
As we move forward from the space of potential into atomic form and then form as living beings, we move *** into ever more committed probabilities *** toward actuality in the world.
Responses
4 -1 see explanation
4 +2 Will, firm intention
4 +1 self-actualization
3 +1 Transformation into something tangible, real, solid, stable
3 destiny and obligation
3 determination
3 propensity
References
Meaning of 'intentionality' in philosophy
Change log

Apr 29, 2023 18:15: philgoddard changed "Field" from "Science" to "Other" , "Field (write-in)" from "energy (in a popular text)" to "(none)"

Apr 30, 2023 09:51: Daryo changed "Field" from "Other" to "Science" , "Field (write-in)" from "(none)" to "quantum physics"

Discussion

FPC May 4, 2023:
Anyway if it's the collapse of the wave function he meant, it's atrociously written
haribert (asker) May 4, 2023:
Dear colleagues, thank you so much for your help! After reading your contribution and re-reading the text, I feel I'll have to use some slightly different terms according to the various context:
in the first occurrence, I think it is "transformation"
in the second, "high degrees of definiteness" (I've found in Italian: "collasso della funzione d'onda , ossia nel passaggio dall'indeterminazione quantistica alla determinatezza")
in the third: "more committed probabilities", I guess he means: "higher degrees of probability"....
The concept, I think, is "going from no certainty, no form, the "sea of potential" (which my author compares with "pure awareness") to higher degrees of probability (for example, the activity of thinking or of remembering) to certainty, to a specific form, to actuality - as Kourosh Fallah says (for instance, a specific thought, memory...)
I really would like to give points to many of view, because I'll draw on many of your contributions. In the end, I've chosen Daryo's contribution, because he has helped me understand this strange use of "commitment".
haribert (asker) May 2, 2023:
Dear FPC, thanks for your observations, actually this author has dealt with the subject of "quantum physics" in more detail in his previous books, where he also described the collapse of the wave function, the microstate vs macrostate reigns, the arrow of time etc.. The problem is that I haven't found any occurrence of "commitment" in his other works...
Anyway I feel I'll have to use some slightly different terms according to the various context:
in the first occurrence, I think it is "transformation"
in the second, "high degrees of definiteness" (I've found in Italian: "collasso della funzione d'onda , ossia nel passaggio dall'indeterminazione quantistica alla determinatezza")
in the third: "more committed probabilities", I guess he means: "higher degrees of probability"....
The concept, I think, is "going from no certainty, no form, the "sea of potential" (which my author compares with "pure awareness") to higher degrees of probability (for example, the activity of thinking or of remembering) to certainty, to a specific form, to actuality - as Kourosh Fallah says (for instance, a specific thought, memory...)

But now I have another problem: how can I give points, if many of you have helped me?
FPC May 2, 2023:
Asker and all (part 2) As for intention, intentionality, directedness etc... there are two issues.

In the usual sense as someone proposed, intention means of coure will, commitment or similar ideas. I don't feel comfortable with a literal usage here because it would imply this 'energy' , this 'actualized energy' has will, consciousness. If we see this as a metaphor, on the other hand, of what's being represent by literal physical notions (energy etc...) then the notion may well apply to the figurative term of the metaphor (mind/psychology).

On the other hand intentionality as referenced from Stanford's Encyclopedia, doesn't seem to have much to do with this. These intentionality and directedness in the sense used in philosophy of mind and language, don't involve a flow, a transition or a will to do anything. Intentionality it's used e.g. by Searle to distinguish semantic ('real') minds from AI which is a purely syntactical processing program.

NEITHER are concepts used in quantum physics , certainly not strictly speaking applied to quantum systems.
FPC May 2, 2023:
Asker and all from the point of view of physics the texts simply doesn't make much sense (even without much).

'Dense' energy is NOT matter and doesn't necessarily transforms, flows or evolves into matter. You can have an enormous density of energy and never any matter. Matter (e.g. electrons, muons,...) can "turn into" radiation (photons) and viceversa but BOTH have energy (which is a property rather than a state of being) and they're BOTH equally ACTUAL. Matter and energy are not dual concepts, meaning that they're not to be viewed as two ways to see the same thing. MASS and energy are. Energy is mass and viceversa, that is your mass is tantamount to the whole energy content of your body.

Then, the oft quoted wave-particle duality and superposition in quantum mechanics, the fact that from probability the system 'falls' into a defined state, does NOT depend on the energy density/contents.

Whatever the guy means, if it's a metaphor from physics it's not well crafted, because to represent the figurative the literal must be clear. Assuming the literal is physics and the figurative is psychology/neuroscience, it's difficult to make sense of the literal (hence of the figurative).
Kourosh Fallah May 2, 2023:
The term has been defined in the text itself First of all, you can find the complete text here
https://tinyurl.com/2kjrw66j

Second of all, the term is defined in the first paragraph in the first use which is the standard practice. Maybe we can use the author's definition.

"In the world of probability, “dense energy” means a commitment, [i.e.] A FLOW, OF POSSIBILITY INTO ACTUALITY."

Is it so far-fetched to say that "a FLOW of possibility INTO ACTUALITY' means 'actualization'? The definition is clear and does not need QM interpretaions.

Also, when the authros define a term of special importance in the first use, the standard practice, they do not change the meaning in later uses shortly after, without explicity redefining the term, which would be counterintuitive.
Lisa Rosengard May 1, 2023:
This is a question about Daryo's analogies. The first one is about a dice with 6 faces and 6 numbers. The rolled dice shows one face and one number from its commitment to stop at that number. The dice has no choice really, but does the one who throws the dice have a real choice or an element of control to commit the dice to show one number instead of 5 others? The second analogy involves bifurcation. I checked the word and I understand it's about a road which forks both ways to the left and the right hand side. Is it a T-junction, at which drivers must turn either left or right? In any case the driver commits to a decision to turn left or right and so the wheels of the car follow the driver's conscious decision. The choice is with the driver not the car.
The final analogy is of a cat who lies inside a box or a cage at the threshold between a state of life or death. The cat develops a commitment to either life or death, but does the cat have a choice to commit to either state, or is the commitment to either state an obligation which was pre-destined or imposed by a power greater than that of the cat, by leaving it abandoned in a box?
Daryo Apr 30, 2023:
This text may well be intended for the general public, but the "context/subject matter" is very specifically "quantum physics".

Not the "ordinary / Newtonian" physics that is good enough for everyday use and is easy to understand intuitively. You don't get "distributions of probabilities collapsing in one single state" anywhere else than in quantum physics.
haribert (asker) Apr 29, 2023:
Dear Phil, may I ask you to leave the subject "physics"? I know the terms may not be so accurate as in physics, but in this passage the author really refers to quantum physics... So maybe he is trying to "translate" some technical concepts into more common words... and an expert in physics may possibly find a parallel in scientific language.. perhaps...
Thank you so much for your understanding"
haribert (asker) Apr 29, 2023:
Dear FPC, yes I've tried to post the question here in the monolingual section, to see whether maybe English-speaking colleagues have already found this term in similar contexts... but it seems they are giving a different interpretation...
FPC Apr 29, 2023:
Didn't I already see this question and said something about it?
philgoddard Apr 29, 2023:
This text is so nebulous as to be almost unreadable, but commitment seems to mean a halfway point between potential and certainty.

I've changed the subject of the question because although the text uses some terms from physics, it's anything but scientific. It sounds more like a self-help book.

Responses

-1
16 hrs
Selected

see explanation

What "commitment" means IN THIS TEXT:

You have a dice.
That makes for 6 possible numbers.
You throw the dice.
When it stops rolling, the dice has been "committed" to ONE number of the possible six.

OR you could made a rough comparison with:
When you're approaching a bifurcation, you have "turned 50% to the left and 50% to the right".
After the bifurcation your car has been "committed" either to 100% "turning left" or 100% "turning right".


Another famous example the Schrödinger's cat.
Inside the closed box, the cat is in a "probabilistic" state = half dead half alive
Once an observer opens the box the cat gets entirely "committed" to either the state of "being alive" or "being dead".

Schrödinger intended his thought experiment as a discussion of the EPR article—named after its authors Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen—in 1935.[3][4] The EPR article highlighted the counterintuitive nature of quantum superpositions, in which a quantum system such as an atom or photon can exist as a combination of multiple states corresponding to different possible outcomes.

The prevailing theory, called the Copenhagen interpretation, says that a quantum system remains in superposition until it interacts with, or is observed by, the external world. When this happens, the superposition collapses into one or another of the possible definite states [***what is called "commitment" in this ST***]. The EPR experiment shows that a system with multiple particles separated by large distances can be in such a superposition. Schrödinger and Einstein exchanged letters about Einstein's EPR article, in the course of which Einstein pointed out that the state of an unstable keg of gunpowder will, after a while, contain a superposition of both exploded and unexploded states.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat


Absolutely NOTHING to do with "commitment" in human behaviour.

a.k.a. "collapse of the wave function"

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Note added at 17 hrs (2023-04-30 10:41:28 GMT)
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Mass is actually very dense energy.
In the world of probability, “dense energy” means a commitment, a flow, of possibility into actuality.

That could be roughly translated as:

there is nothing "probabilistic" about the mass we perceive around us. The mass we perceive has very defined characteristics as what we see is the result of a multitude of possible states "committing" themselves to only one.

As opposed to the level of particles, that are not in any "determined" space-time positions but somewhere in their "probability clouds".

BTW this text makes perfect sense - within the weirdness of quantum physics.



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Note added at 2 days 4 hrs (2023-05-01 22:06:47 GMT)
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Point of method:

A whole contract might well be "legal", but the part describing in details what is being sold will usually NOT be "legal" - if some machinery is being sold, that bit will have as "context" mechanical engineering or s.t. similar.

A kind of variation on "un train peut en cacher un autre": one context might be hiding nested within another context.

In the same way, whatever the whole book is about, any sentence where "mass = energy" MUST be related to quantum physics (see e=m*c2 etc ...).

The author tried to make some parallels between concepts used in psychology and concepts of "probability/indetermination" vs "determination (when an observer takes a reading)" as used in quantum physics.

A very brave thing to do - the idea of a half-dead/half-alive cat, or of a particle and a wave being two sides of the same thing, are rather hard to digest - too counterintuitive.

To make things worst, using "committing" when talking of energy coalescing into mass is a very unfortunate choice of words, as in physics - be it Newtonian or quantum - there is NO concept whatsoever of "will / intention / planning".

The explanation for the apple falling on Newton's head was in the law of gravity, not any "will" of the apple to do so. Neither subatomic particles have any "will" as understood in psychology.

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Note added at 2 days 4 hrs (2023-05-01 22:19:00 GMT)
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yes

..."dense energy" means turning (flowing from... to... / changing from... into...) the state of probabilistic indetermination into a single actual "state of definiteness"

would be a good rewording to use as starting point for a translation.

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Note added at 2 days 4 hrs (2023-05-01 22:21:47 GMT)
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I hope that resorting to quantum physics for comparisons will soon be a forgotten fad - it usually only increases confusion.

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Note added at 2 days 5 hrs (2023-05-01 23:02:14 GMT)
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where you have ".... higher degrees of commitment ..." it would also make it easier to understand if you replace the highly error-inducing "commitment" by "higher degrees of definiteness" (= mieux défini, moins de flou/incertitude)
Note from asker:
Daryo, thank you so much for your help and also for re-changing the subject of my question! I think I understand the concept, but I just can't find a translation into Italian, or a synonym... maybe "constrained" or "narrowing down" of possibilities to one actuality.?
Maybe I've found a possible synonymous which in Italian is "determinatezza", in English "definiteness".or determination... the opposite of "indetermination"... By the way, I'm really sorry for this "struggle" among colleagues...
Thank you so much, Daryo, for your further explanations!
Peer comment(s):
neutral philgoddard : You need to get your car looked at. Mine doesn't turn 50% to the left and 50% to the right at every 'bifurcation',
3 hrs
Luckily for me mine neither - the boring thing is just at one place at the time and simply follows only one road at the time - it's not a "quantum car" // Risk getting few headaches, try reading few things about quantum physics ...
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : What a load of waffle (about a paedophile). You haven't answered the question either
6 hrs
The specific extract is about some comparison with the concepts [of mass etc] ***as used in quantum physics*** - you have FIRST to recognise what the text is about ... // "a context within a larger context" - as a wide open nasty trap = not known?
neutral FPC : I also think it's not related to human-like conscience, but can't really find anything to hold on to in real physics and the collapse of psi doesn't capture the meaning in this text.
9 hrs
There ares clues waiting to be picked up // anyway, Asker confirmed that the text is about some comparison with the concepts of indetermination / determination as used in quantum physics.
neutral Kourosh Fallah : Let's use your explanation. When a possibility 'happens', it becomes a 'reality' (realized). If there is a will to make that possibility happen, it is 'actualized'. If the will belongs to the being itself, then it is self-actualization.//PS:see discussion
10 hrs
YES for the 1st sentence. OTOH there is no concept of "will/planning/intention" in quantum physics - it's an unnecessary hypothesis. OTHER assumptions are used for explanations - that give verifiable results, BTW.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you so much, Daryo, for your contribution and explanations! As you also said, I feel I'll have to use some slightly different terms according to the various context: in the first occurrence, I think it is "transformation" in the second, "high degrees of definiteness" (I've found in Italian: "collasso della funzione d'onda , ossia nel passaggio dall'indeterminazione quantistica alla determinatezza") in the third: "more committed probabilities", I guess he means: "higher degrees of probability".... The concept, I think, is "going from no certainty, no form, the "sea of potential" (which my author compares with "pure awareness") to higher degrees of probability (for example, the activity of thinking or of remembering) to certainty, to a specific form, to actuality - as Kourosh Fallah says (for instance, a specific thought, memory...)"
+1
39 mins

Transformation into something tangible, real, solid, stable

This is my understanding of it.
Note from asker:
Thank you very much, Mihaela, for your contribution!
Peer comment(s):
agree M.A.B.
15 hrs
neutral Daryo : very roughly that - it's more "reducing the number of possibilities to only one"
16 hrs
Something went wrong...
+2
41 mins

Will, firm intention

All these examples talk of commitment, i.e. will, or firm intention, to turn possibilities or probabilities into actuality or reality.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2023-04-29 18:27:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Transformation would be a process, not a commitment
Note from asker:
Dear Yvonne, I'm not so sure it is about "intention", because the text also says "even before complex life forms evolved"...
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard
9 mins
Thanks!
agree Jennifer Levey : The idea that came into my (sometimes twisted...) mind as I read the extracts is that there are 'increasing degrees of intentionality'.// We're doomed, Yvonne. But at least we'll go out laughing :)
17 mins
Indeed Perfect for this! Thanks:-) PS If your mind is twisted then I'm your twin LOL //looks like it! :-))
neutral FPC : I ventured something along these lines in a comment to to the previous question, but I find it's reading too much into the text, sort of a panspsychism we cannot be sure is what the author meant// yes it's the meaning but it doesn't make much sense
32 mins
Quite simply the meaning of commitment, no more, no less
agree Tony M
3 hrs
Many thanks:-)
disagree Daryo : not in quantum physics // however quantum physics can be wierd or counterintuitive, assuming that matter/energy has "will" or "intention" is not part of it / The obvious is not always as obvious as it seems, as in "Un train peut en cacher un autre"?
14 hrs
Time to go and take some more English classes. This is not writing from a quantum physicist, however, intentionality or directedness ARE concepts in that field
Something went wrong...
18 hrs

destiny and obligation

The first sentence tells us that solid and dense structures, like buildings, and solid objects such as books are committed by being dense matter. The commitment is the obligation and destiny of the solid and dense matter to remain the same as solid and dense matter, to establish security.
It goes on to describe possibility as a less dense matter with a commitment or an obligation and a destiny to become a probability followed by a transformation into something else. The end-product is an actuality or a separate reality from a progression incited by the destiny and obligation of the initial possibility or less densely solid matter.
It uses the example of a conception of an unborn baby which is a possibility with uncertainty, before it assumes a commitment with an obligation and a destiny or protocol. Its assigned commitment leads it to progress and develop into a solid matter with a probability and then a definitive form of a human baby.
One of the references below describes a possibility as a matter with little or no density, which has a protocol and a commitment in a polarized path which leads to its progression, development and transformation.
Definitions of commitment include engagement, acceptance, agreement and obligation to do something or remain consigned to a duty.
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/commitment
Reference:

https://www.ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/366851

http://arxiv.org/abs/2210.05138

Note from asker:
Thank you Lisa for your contribution!
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

self-actualization

It can mean partial self-actualization, halfway to full-blown self-actualization, as defined by Maslow. That's my understanding of the text.

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Note added at 1 hr (2023-04-29 18:57:54 GMT)
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Maybe he is generalizing the psychological drive defined by Maslow to other beings.

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Note added at 1 hr (2023-04-29 19:01:42 GMT)
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"Maslow defined self-actualization to be "self-fulfillment, namely the tendency for him [the individual] to become actualized in what he is potentially. This tendency might be phrased as the desire to become more and more what one is, to become everything that one is capable of becoming."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-actualization


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Note added at 1 day 3 hrs (2023-04-30 20:45:25 GMT)
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@Asker (haribert) Let's use Daryo detailed explanation. When a possibility 'happens' (in the cat example, when the box is opened by the observer), it becomes a 'reality' (realized). If there is a will to make that possibility happen, it is 'actualized'. If the will belongs to the being itself, then it is self-actualization.
Note from asker:
Thank you very much for your contribution!
Dear Kourosh Fallah, Daryo is actually right: in this text Siegel makes a comparison between some concepts of quantum physics and complex system theory and the development of awareness... the author has actually spoken with many quantum physicists...
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : this text is about quantum physics // you got the example right - except the part where you added the idea of "will" - as the difference from psychology, there is no "will" of any description included in explaining laws of physics.
15 hrs
Siegel is a psychiatry professor whose books are about psychology. Psychologists (the intended expert audience) usually know nothing about quantum physics. Hard to believe that a text for them is about quantum physics.//PS: See the discussion
agree philgoddard
17 hrs
Thank you!
agree FPC : I would even do without the "self", "actualization" is the idea
1 day 1 hr
Thank you.
Something went wrong...
1 day 19 hrs

determination

:) In that context (quantum physics)
Note from asker:
Thank you, Clauwolf, for your contribution!
Something went wrong...
3 days 16 hrs

propensity

This is more or less my final word about it, much as i think (see comments) this word salad is hard to make sense of. The idea here is that of inclination, tendency or similar synonyms or quasi-synonym such as my suggestion above. The man seems to say that the denser the energy in somewhere the higher its "propensity/inclination/tendency" to go from potential to actual... I'll post the same in the Italian forum

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Note added at 3 days 16 hrs (2023-05-03 09:42:29 GMT)
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Here : https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/propensity
https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/tendency
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

Meaning of 'intentionality' in philosophy

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/intentionality/
"In philosophy, intentionality is the power of minds and mental states to be about, to represent, or to stand for, things, properties and states of affairs. To say of an individual’s mental states that they have intentionality is to say that they are mental representations or that they have contents."
...
"For reasons soon to be explained, in its philosophical usage, the meaning of the word ‘intentionality’ should not be confused with the ordinary meaning of the word ‘intention.’ As indicated by the meaning of the Latin word tendere, which is the etymology of ‘intentionality,’ the relevant idea behind intentionality is that of mental directedness towards (or attending to) objects, as if the mind were construed as a mental bow whose arrows could be properly aimed at different targets."
Note from asker:
Thank you, Jennifer, My doubt about "intention" or "intentionality" derives from the fact that the text says "even before complex life forms evolved" there was the emergence of probability and certainty from possibility and uncertainty
Peer comments on this reference comment:
disagree Daryo : the ST is an attempt to explain ***quantum physics*** or more exactly to reuse "concepts from quantum physics" for the purpose of comparison in a totally unrelated field. // "mass=(dense) energy ..." IS quantum physics, NOT psychology.
14 hrs
agree philgoddard
17 hrs
agree Yvonne Gallagher : Honestly don't see why Haribert has a problem with that phrase. Makes no difference to the meaning of this word.
18 hrs
neutral FPC : Yes but what's the connection? Intentionality and directedness in this sense in philosophy of mind, don't involve a flow, a transition like from radiation to matter. It's used e.g. by Searle to distinguish semantic minds from purely syntactical AI
2 days 20 hrs
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