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German to English translations [PRO] Bus/Financial - Transport / Transportation / Shipping / Incoterms, Lieferbedingungen
German term or phrase:Lieferort
Can someone give me an authoritative answer on this one, please? I've looked in the Glossary, but I'm still confused.
My sentence, in a delivery terms doc (DE(DE)>EN(UK)): Lieferungen erfolgen abhängig vom Nettowarenwert entweder FCA [place name] (Incoterms 2020) oder DAP Lieferort (Incoterms 2020).
It seems the translation should be either "place of destination" or "place of delivery" (possibly also "point of ..."), but I don't know which, or if it depends on the type of delivery (CPT/DAP/etc.). I'm clearly no Incoterms expert, but it's apparent that there's a very important distinction between the two terms in English, as explained here, for example:
"It’s strongly recommended that the parties define the place of delivery (in the seller's country) as well as the place of destination (in the buyer's country) due to the fact that risk passes to the buyer at the named place of delivery in the seller's country." https://www.lloydsbank.com/business/resource-centre/business... (under CIP)
Under DAP, DHL refers to Zielort instead:
DAP – geliefert benannter Ort GELIEFERT BENANNTER ORT (DAP) bedeutet, dass der Verkäufer die Ware – und das Risiko – an den Käufer übergibt, wenn die Ware dem Käufer auf dem ankommenden Transportmittel zur Entladung am benannten Zielort oder an einem vereinbarten Punkt innerhalb dieses Ortes zur Verfügung gestellt wird, falls ein solcher Punkt vereinbart ist. Der Verkäufer trägt alle Risiken, die mit dem Transport der Ware zum benannten Zielorort oder zum vereinbarten Punkt innerhalb dieses Ortes verbunden sind. In dieser Incoterms-Regel sind daher Lieferung und Ankunft am Zielort gleich. https://www.dhl.com/de-de/home/freight/formularfehler/incote...
... So, which is which? Lieferort/Zielort, place of destination/place of delivery???
Thank you, Alina (and Marion for the reference). I asked for the translation of Lieferort in connection with DAP and I think this is it (as supported by Dietl/Lorenz). 3 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer
The trouble here is that in a DAP context...everyone's right, including those writing "DAP Lieferort" (as well as the DHL)--because Lieferort=Bestimmungsort=Zielort: "Schließt einen Beförderungsvertrag ab und trägt Kosten und Gefahr bis zum Lieferort (Bestimmungsort)" https://www.contradius.de/images/pdf/export-brief-sonderausg...
In essence, you can happily switch between all three and you'd always be correct. I think this is also one of the reasons why Marion's and the .gov document I linked to include "named place of destination"--because it doesn't matter with regard to DAP.
This would not work, however, if we were talking about, e.g., CIP, which you gave as an example.
In this case, you need to distinguish between "Lieferort" and "Bestimmungsort" or place of delivery and place of destination, as LLoyds Bank did.
I understand your reasoning for choosing the first answer, but to clarify something considering your comments to other answerers (where you twice said "rather than 'destination'"):
I didn't argue against translating "Lieferort" as "place of delivery" in an Incoterms context (just not in this particular case); I also agree with Alina-Maria's "place of destination" as a translation for "Bestimmungsort"/"Zielort."
See the table there, especially the column captioned "Bedeutung." If it's about your Q regarding the LLoyds Bank link, this can also be found in Marion's document (you did read the whole doc, Marion?): "In allen Incoterms 2020 Klauseln definiert A2 den ‚Lieferort oder -hafen‘, und dieser Ort oder Hafen ist in EXW und FCA (Gelände des Verkäufers) zum Verkäufer am nächsten gelegen und in DAP, DPU und DDP zum Käufer am nächsten gelegen. Der durch A2 angegebene Lieferort oder -hafen ist im Hinblick auf den Gefahrenübergang und die Kosten von entscheidender Bedeutung. Der Lieferort oder -hafen gemäß A2 kennzeichnet den Ort, an dem der Gefahrenübergang vom Verkäufer auf den Käufer gemäß A3 erfolgt."
The risk transfer you wrote about is, as you said, found under CIP, which is a horse of a different color.
The "D-Klauseln" include DAP, so "Zielort" is pretty unfortunate here, as no distinction is made between Bestimmungsort and Lieferort so which one of the two is "Zielort" is entirely irrelevant in this case.
"Zielort" is also neither part of Marion's document nor of Incoterms. I honestly have no clue what DHL did here and I don't want you to get confused here because of our German mail people =)
That's also where I don't agree with Marion when she writes "der Lieferort noch näher spezifiziert werden (place, point, particular area or company's premises)"--the "place" in "delivered at place" is the "Ort."
From the Investopedia link I quoted below: "Delivered-at-place (DAP) is an international trade term used to describe a deal in which a seller agrees to pay all costs and suffer any potential losses of moving goods sold to a specific location. In DAP agreements, the buyer is responsible for paying import duties and any applicable taxes, including clearance and local taxes, once the shipment has arrived at the specified destination."
As shown above, they're using "location" one time and then "destination"; there isn't any difference in meaning between both, though.
That's the same thing DHL does, unfortunately, the other part, where I'm seemingly in disagreement with Marion. I quote from Marion's document: "...in den D-Klauseln ist der benannte Ort jeweils der Lieferort und zugleich der Bestimmungsort, wobei der Verkäufer den Transport bis zu dieser Stelle organisieren muss..." ...
This is what I would expect to see on a UK website (and the following is a UK website; I almost always come prepared): "Seller will confirm in writing on which basis the shipment is made, typically this will be FCA (Incoterms 2020) OR FOB shipping point (Incoterms 2020) OR DDP (Incoterms 2020) OR DAP (Incoterms 2020). In absence of express agreement all shipments will be EXW (Incoterms 2020)." https://www.morrells.co.uk/support/terms-conditions-of-sale/
As I've tried to hint at below, the term "Lieferort" should have been in brackets or parentheses because
(a) as Phil also pointed out, Germans sometimes add a word to an EN term to make it more comprehensible to Germans.
You can't translate this back into English because
(b) DAP already means "Delivered at place" so you'd be writing "Delivered at place place of delivery"; that'd be an even more glaring example of redundancy than ATM machine. Also,
(c) you should keep the acronym (and I'd say, the Incoterms specification) and not replace them because of the possible (legal) repercussions a deviation from internationally agreed standards would have (just my opinion, maybe I'm wrong).
Thanks, Phil. I'll do so within an hour or two, not within weeks this time =)
An Marion: Um das klarzustellen, ich finde deinen Link sehr gut. Er passt für mich nur nicht zum Agree. Ich gehe gleich noch einmal darauf ein, wenn ich Julia antworte.
I'd like to know the proper Incoterms translation of Lieferort, specifically in the context of my sentence: Lieferungen erfolgen abhängig vom Nettowarenwert entweder FCA [place name] (Incoterms 2020) oder DAP Lieferort (Incoterms 2020).
I do see your point, Björn and Phil, but I think I would like to translate the term, and I'm thinking that Alina-Maria's answer is probably correct, especially that Dietl/Lorenz appears to bear it out.
Mit meinem Link wollte ich den Unterschied zwischen Lieferort und Ziel-/Bestimmungsort verdeutlichen, was ja Julias eigentliche Frage war. Die Fracht-Klauseln und ihre Bedeutung hinsichtlich des Gefahrenübergangs dürften ihr wohl bekannt sein bzw. hast du diese ja wunderbar aufgelistet. Natürlich kann der Lieferort noch näher spezifiziert werden (place, point, particular area or company's premises), aber diese Info liegt uns ja nicht vor ...
Just to prove my point: "DAP simply means that the seller takes on all the risks and costs of delivering goods to an agreed-upon location...A delivered-at-place or DAP agreement is applicable for any form or combination of forms of transportation. It usually lists the point at which the buyer takes on financial responsibilities, such as 'delivered-at-place, Port of Oakland.'" https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/delivered-place-dap.asp
"DAP: Delivered at Place The Incoterm DAP stands for Delivered at Place and means that the seller must pay for carriage to any named place. The seller also becomes liable for any risk of loss or damage to the goods until ready for unloading by the buyer. The only costs not covered by the seller are related to import clearance."
"FCA: Free Carrier The Incoterm FCA stands for Free Carrier and means that the seller should deliver the goods to the carrier at the buyer’s named place. The seller is responsible for clearing the goods for export and covers the costs of carriage to a named place." https://www.johnpipe.co.uk/air-freight-incoterms-glossary/
Not entirely sure about your question; I wouldn't translate anything here. "Lieferort" after "DAP" seems like a redundancy (only added for those not speaking English, I guess). Cf.: "Grundsätzlich ist DAP (Lieferort) das Beste. Das heißt die Lieferung wird bis zum angegebenen Lieferort (nicht immer gleich der Bestimmungsort) vom Dienstleister übernommen. Die Lieferkosten sind dann meist im tatsächlich zu zahlenden Preis enthalten." https://www.gutefrage.net/frage/welcher-incoterm-macht-fuer-...
"DAP - Geliefert benannter Ort // Delivered at Place 'Geliefert benannter Ort' bedeutet, dass der Verkäufer liefert, wenn die Ware dem Käufer auf dem ankommenden Beförderungsmittel des Verkäufers entladebereit am benannten Bestimmungsort zur Verfügung gestellt wird. Der Verkäufer trägt alle Gefahren, die im Zusammenhang mit der Beförderung zum benannten Ort entstehen."
"FCA - Frei Frachtführer // Free Carrier 'Frei Frachtführer' bedeutet, dass der Verkäufer die Ware dem Frachtführer oder einer anderen vom Käufer benannten Person beim Verkäufer oder an einem anderen benannten Ort liefert. Die Parteien sind gut beraten, die Stelle innerhalb des benannten Lieferortes so genau wie möglich zu bezeichnen, da an dieser Stelle die Gefahr auf den Käufer übergeht." https://www.iccgermany.de/standards-incoterms/incoterms-2020...
See also: "Die Übergabestelle (place) sollte bei DAP möglichst präzise bezeichnet sein, weil alle Gefahren und Kosten bis zu dieser Stelle vom Verkäufer getragen werden. Die eigentlichen Entladekosten und die Gefahr der Entladung trägt der Käufer." https://wirtschaftslexikon.gabler.de/definition/dap-52731
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Answers
3 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +1
Place of delivery
Explanation: Hello, so Lieferort would be place of delivery and Zielort place of destination.
Alina-Maria Zaharia Romania Local time: 16:48 Meets criteria Works in field Native speaker of: Romanian PRO pts in category: 3
Grading comment
Thank you, Alina (and Marion for the reference). I asked for the translation of Lieferort in connection with DAP and I think this is it (as supported by Dietl/Lorenz).
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks for your quick response, Alina-Maria! Do you have any supporting references?