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fruta de una selección de los fondos de museo
JUnior Trader de Mesa Distribución Corporativa de Tesorería y Mesa de Renta Vari
Sep 7, 2007 17:14
17 yrs ago
4 viewers *
Spanish term

forjado, labrado

Spanish to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting silver work
This is a ficha for a small silver sculpture. Up to now, I've not had the word "labrado" appear in these descriptions, but in general, I've been struggling with pairings that appear to say the same thing, and this is another instance.

Can someone please tell me the difference between the two terms.

Combinación de plata forjada con una forma con textura. Forjado y labrado
Proposed translations (English)
4 to forge (forjado), to tool (labrado)
5 +1 forged, carved
4 +1 Forging, carving
4 wrought, hammered
4 forged and crafted
Change log

Jun 22, 2008 20:51: psicutrinius changed "Field (specific)" from "Metallurgy / Casting" to "Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting"

Discussion

psicutrinius Sep 7, 2007:
Therefore I would agree with John here, except that I would say "wrought" rather than "forged". For "labrado" I cannot think of anything better than "to tool" (though I am afraid an "artist" will frown at that...)
psicutrinius Sep 7, 2007:
I would say that "labrar" is the general term ("to shape") and "forjado" ("wrought"), the specific one in this case.
psicutrinius Sep 7, 2007:
But look at the FIRST definition of "labrar" as given by the DRAE:

labrar.(Del lat. laborāre).
1. tr. Trabajar una materia reduciéndola al estado o forma conveniente para usarla. Labrar la madera. Labrar plata. Therefore...
psicutrinius Sep 7, 2007:
Afraid there is a conflict here between "metallurgists" (say, engineers), and the artist (the author), a silversmith who seems not to be, let's say, rigorous with the scientific concepts. Of course, "forjado a martillo" is "wrought", beyond any doubt.
psicutrinius Sep 7, 2007:
"wrought" is NOT fundido, Spanish doc. I have supplied a definition which may not be handy enough to solve Patricia's predicament, but which rules out completely any "fundido" ("molten") concept.
John Rawlins Sep 7, 2007:
Hi again. I take the mercenary view that he who pays the piper calls the tune. Why not discreetly add something in the introduction to the glossary about it being his own particular glossary. Too sneaky?
LATAM Agent Sep 7, 2007:
Forging can be done hot, cold, with hammer, in open die, closed die etc. google it at: see it at: +"WIKI" +"Forge".

Wrought (fundido) is a process to pour the molten metal into a cast (molde) resulting in "casting", which could also be forged after.
Patricia Rosas (asker) Sep 7, 2007:
John: I just saw your note. Well, I guess it is; I just hope that what I put in these descriptions satisfies him!
Patricia Rosas (asker) Sep 7, 2007:
Then, I really have a problem because of the glossary created by this master silversmith. It is his work that is being described in the picture, and he's the person who has written "labrado y forjado". Unfortunately, he doesn't provide an entry for labrar!
John Rawlins Sep 7, 2007:
Hi Patricia

The subject's glossary may well be at odds with common acceptance of the meanings.
Enrique Espinosa Sep 7, 2007:
Forjar and labrar are distinct processes. Labrar is to carve a metal in cold to adorn or decorate it. In this case, silver has been forged first, and then, carved. I wouldn't agree that forjar is the same than labrar as understood in Spanish
Patricia Rosas (asker) Sep 7, 2007:
I agree that forjado is forged (with heat) or wrought (by hammering) but then if LABRADO is the same term for FORJADO, should I assume that forjado y labrado mean FORGED AND HAMMERED? Why is everyone talking about "CARVED"? I'm lost -- hammering and carving are completely distinct? (I've got to run an errand, so if I disappear that's why).

ALSO I was leaning toward "hand-tooled" from John's answer. Does anyone think that's wrong? THANK YOU ALL, KUDOZers!!!!
psicutrinius Sep 7, 2007:
3. Made delicately or elaborately.
(www.dictionary.com)
psicutrinius Sep 7, 2007:
I understand that this "forging" is carried out by hammering (no die), in which case the word is "wrought":

adj.

1. Put together; created: a carefully wrought plan.
2. Shaped by hammering with tools. Used chiefly of metals or metalwork.
Enrique Espinosa Sep 7, 2007:
Hi Pati! Forging is the term for shaping metal by plastic deformation. Cold forging is done at low temperatures, while conventional forging is done at high temperatures, which makes metal easier to shape and less likely to fracture.
Patricia Rosas (asker) Sep 7, 2007:
The client's glossary The subject of this book wrote a glossary for it that says:
FORJADO. Esta técnica, también es conocida como LABRADO y consiste en trabajar la pieza a golpes que la van configurando.

So this is the source of my concern. If "forjado" = labrado, how can one be forged/wrought and the other just "carved"? Throughout this book, I've translated "cincelar" and "grabar" as "engraved" but isn't "carved" just a synonym for engraving? Then there's the problem I'm still having with "rechazado" which I understand to be CHASED, but some people say that CINCELAR = CHASED. I'm so confused!!

Proposed translations

16 mins
Selected

to forge (forjado), to tool (labrado)

From Moliner

forjado, -a
1 Participio de «forjar[se]». ¤ adj. Se aplica al hierro trabajado a golpes en forja, a diferencia del fundido o colado.
2 m. Constr. Obra con que se hacen las separaciones entre los pisos de un edificio. Ô *Entramado.

labrar (del lat. «laboräre»)
1 tr. *Trabajar cualquier ÷material o elaborar o hacer cualquier producto u obra: ‘Labrar la cera [unas randas, la moneda]’; en particular, tratándose de la *madera, la *piedra, las *piedras preciosas o los *metales, o de hacer labores con materias textiles: ‘Labrar la seda [el oro]. Labrar de piedra un edificio’.
2 En lenguaje corriente, se emplea sólo con el significado de hacer labores o adornos en relieve en la ÷*madera, el *metal, el *cuero, etc.: ‘Labrar el metal a martillo’. Þ Cantear, esculpir, grabar, relabrar, tallar.
3 Edificar.
4 *Cultivar la ÷tierra.
5 En sentido restringido, *ararla o *cavarla.
6 Cultivar una ÷tierra ajena, por ejemplo como *colono.
7 Se aplica a palabras como «÷felicidad, desgracia, ruina, porvenir» y semejantes con el significado de «laborar por» o «*hacer»: ‘Está labrando su perdición’. Se usa también como reflexivo: ‘Labrarse un porvenir’.
8 intr. Causar una cosa impresión en el ánimo de alguien: ‘Labrar en el espíritu’.
2 Catálogo
Ablaquear, acoyuntar, adocilar, agostar, aladrar, alomar, alombar, alzar, amelgar, aparar, *arar, aricar, arrejacar, arromper, artigar, asurcar, atetillar, barbechar, binar, cabecear, cachar, carpentear, *cavar, cohechar, conrear, corar, cruzar, cuartar, desfondar, desrastrojar, desvolver, entrecavar, escaliar, escarificar, escavanar, excavar, faenar, forcatear, huachar, jadiar, laborear, lampear, layar, rajar los lomos, mantornar, panificar, quintar, ralbar, rearar, rebinar, recavar, rejacar, romper, roturar, rozar, sobrearar, subsolar, surcar, terciar, volver. Ó Besana, caballón, loba, lomo, *surco. Ó Abesana, besana, labor, laborío, labradura, obrada, peonada, peonería, peonía. Ó Arada, bina, rebina, renda, roturación, tercia, terciazón, vuelta. Ó Agarrado, duro. Ó Ahurragado, aurragado, lleco. Ó Chorra, empina. Ó Huebra. Ó Relabrar. Ó *Agricultura. *Arado. *Cavar.


From Oxford

labrado -da adj
a ‹ madera › carved; ‹ piedra › cut, carved
b ‹ cuero › tooled
c (Tex) patterned


forjar ÞA1 vt
a ‹ utensilio/pieza › to forge; Þhierro
b ‹ porvenir › to shape, forge; ‹ plan › to make; ‹ ilusiones/esperanzas › to build up
c ‹ nación/bases › to create; ‹ amistad/alianza › to forge
 forjarse v pron ‹ porvenir › to shape, forge; ‹ ilusiones › to build up; forjarse un camino to forge a way for oneself
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "John: thanks for all your thoughts on this! Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, I can't add any notes to the glossary. I was on a very tight deadline, and I used "hand-tooled" but the more I think about Ed's answer (crafted), I'm wondering if that might have been a simple way out -- although for "fichas técnicas" it doesn't tell the read much! Anyway, points to you!"
+1
35 mins

forged, carved

Plata labrada = Fashion silver
Labrar plata = to fashion silver


Others: Carve, shape, sculpt.


http://www.ci.redmond.wa.us/eConnect/Activities/ActivitiesCo...

Learn the fundamentals used to fashion silver, copper and brass wire (and gold too) into stunning bracelets, necklaces, earrings and more.

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Note added at 36 mins (2007-09-07 17:50:46 GMT)
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Forjado y Labrado
Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silversmith

Peer comment(s):
agree Enrique Espinosa
58 mins
Something went wrong...
+1
14 mins

Forging, carving

This are production processes or artcraft

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2007-09-07 17:30:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

forging is at high temperatures, carving is with metal insprument or wood instrument

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2007-09-07 18:55:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Forging can only be don when the metal piece is at high temperatures
Peer comment(s):
agree Margarita Gonzalez
18 mins
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

wrought, hammered

Enough "ask asker" notes:

"forjar" involves beating AND heat (as much heat as necessary to bring the metal to a plastic enough state) . In English, that translates as "wrought" (forjado a mano), or "forged" (inside a jig or a die, and generally for series production).

However, both silver and gold are plastic enough ("malleable" is the term), in a normal, cold state, to lend themselves to be worked by hammering.

Therefore, I guess that the author means "hammered" when he says "labrado", and "wrought" when he says "forjado". I assume, of course, that he is not working to a precise (involving any series and dimensional interchangeability). In this case, (1) hammering would be definitely ruled out and (b), the pieces woud be forged, not wrought (because a die or jig would be needed).
Note from asker:
psicutrinius: Thank you so much for all the information you shared in the "Ask the Asker" box. It helped me arrive at the decision that "labrar" in the glossary that I noted was indeed used really just to mean "worked". I used John's answer "hand-tooled" because I feel I needed something more specific than just worked or crafted for labrar since these are "fichas técnicas". Anyway, I wish I could split the points!
Something went wrong...
8 hrs

forged and crafted

'crafted' covers a multitude of sins....or forged and hand-worked..
Note from asker:
Ed: I ended up giving the points to John, because under pressure, I sent in document with "hand-tooled" but I am going to write my edited and ask him what he thinks of "crafted". I hesitate to use it in "fichas técnicas" precisely for the reason you cited -- it could mean anything. But since I don't have photos, and the "labrado" can mean so many things, maybe that's the safest choice. Thanks again for your suggestion!
Something went wrong...
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