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Galician / Gallegan - Valencia / Valencian
Thread poster: Timothy Barton

Timothy Barton
Local time: 16:44
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
Nov 18, 2005

The Galician thing has been posted before: http://www.proz.com/topic/35826

But seems to have been ignored. There is no difference between these two, and Galician is the usual English name, so Gallegan should be deleted. This is nothing to do with the discussion over whether Galician is Portuguese or not (I don't want to go down that road); these are two words that are complete synonyms.

As for "Valencia", I believe it should be "Valencian". I also believe it would be much more practical to merge it with Catalan. Nearly all linguists (which is whom this site is for) agree it is a variety of the same language. Anyone who can translate Catalan can translate Valencian, because we speak to Valencians in Catalan (and they reply in Valencian), we hear TV interviews with Valencians speaking their own language, we read newspaper articles written by Valencians etc...

I'm not too bothered whether it's called Catalan, Valencian, Catalan/Valencian or Valencian/Catalan, but it should be together, otherwise we may as will add Mallorcan.


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Maria Rosich Andreu  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 17:44
Member (2003)
Dutch to Spanish
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a number of changes are needed Nov 18, 2005

This keeps coming up now and then, but the changes so far are not implemented. Aside from the two that Tim proposes, also Flemish / Dutch should be merged.

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Timothy Barton
Local time: 16:44
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I was going to mention that... Nov 18, 2005

Maria Rosich Andreu wrote:

This keeps coming up now and then, but the changes so far are not implemented. Aside from the two that Tim proposes, also Flemish / Dutch should be merged.


I was going to mention that but I decided not to because I preferred not to comment on a language. Though my Flemish flatmate has always told me it's the same language and that she could translate for the Netherlands without any problem.

One could argue that Flemish translate for Flanders and the Dutch translate for the Netherlands, but this is the case with English, yet I still get lots of help from Americans, and I would hate it if English was split.


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alvanice
Local time: 17:44
Member
English to French
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The Valencian has been entered in the Official Languages list of the EU Nov 18, 2005

Mr. Francisco Camps, President of the Generalitat Valenciana announced this EU decision very proudly recently. The fact that Valencian an Mallorcan should be considered as "Catalan" languages is an old debate.I'm Valencian and I can read and translate from Catalan and Mallorcan (by the way, Mallorca is a magic island) but I must say that I sometimes struggle to understand Catalan and Mallorcan speakers, something to do with the accent (the more you go up to the North Catalonia, the more it gets stronger), some words vary but we, the people from these regions, know the differences. Very rich languages and cultures.

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Maria Rosich Andreu  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 17:44
Member (2003)
Dutch to Spanish
+ ...
splitting a language or not Nov 18, 2005

Timothy Barton wrote:

One could argue that Flemish translate for Flanders and the Dutch translate for the Netherlands, but this is the case with English, yet I still get lots of help from Americans, and I would hate it if English was split.


I often see jobs for Mexican Spanish or US English, so I think it would be just as easy for the outsourcer to indicate wether a given translation is for Belgium or the Netherlands, without having to split the language. It works for Spanish and English, right?

Maybe many people do not know Flemish is Dutch, but that could be solved, for example: Dutch (Flemish) / Dutch (the Netherlands), or any other formula the Belgians are happy with.

[Edited at 2005-11-18 11:09]


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Fernando Toledo  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:44
German to Spanish
What are you speaking about? Nov 18, 2005

Timothy Barton wrote:

The Galician thing has been posted before: http://www.proz.com/topic/35826

But seems to have been ignored. There is no difference between these two, and Galician is the usual English name, so Gallegan should be deleted.


OK two words to say the same, fine but...


I also believe it would be much more practical to merge it with Catalan. Nearly all linguists (which is whom this site is for) agree it is a variety of the same language.


so, you believe...OK it is real both are varieties of the same language LATIN

In Kudoz we are tying to apply the regionalism in Spanish (Argentina, Venezuela, México...) to find better solutions to a translation and you want to merge valencian and mallorcan into Catalan? why?

Anyone who can translate Catalan can translate Valencian, because we speak to Valencians in Catalan (and they reply in Valencian), we hear TV interviews with Valencians speaking their own language, we read newspaper articles written by Valencians etc...


This is the big fish eat little fish philosophy, in the same way I can speak spanish in Catalonia and they understand, or why not Italy? so from now there is no more Italian or Portuguese cause wir are a bigger fish ...

I'm not too bothered whether it's called Catalan, Valencian, Catalan/Valencian or Valencian/Catalan, but it should be together, otherwise we may as will add Mallorcan.



Of course Mallorca! why not, which is your problem?


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Timothy Barton
Local time: 16:44
Member (2006)
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Toledo Nov 18, 2005

The Catalans understand you speaking Spanish because they are bilingual.

With Spanish and English there is a section to add a dialect/regional form, but they are not listed as seperate languages. I would have to multiply my language combinations in my profile by about 20 if we were to list all these forms as seperate dialect.

Conclusion: in English, you first select "English", and then, if it is relevant, you select British or American. In Catalan/Valencian the same should be the case.

PS Who should we believe on Proz? The linguists? Or the politicians? Let's support our colleagues, the linguists?

[Edited at 2005-11-18 11:34]


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Anabel Martínez  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 17:44
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
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There are levels of understanding Nov 18, 2005

Ok, so I definitely can understand some Italian, but that's not the same level of understanding as with Catalan and Valencian, it has nothing to do with that! In any case, people from Mallorca are much harder to understand, and they didn't claim separate languages, so please, don't mix politics here.

It's obvious that they are 2 different varieties, but, like I won't translate into Chilean Spanish, I also tend to avoid translating into Valencian because I was born a Catalan. And I haven't heard anyone say Chilean Spanish is a different language to European Spanish. Is that so hard to understand?


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Fernando Toledo  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:44
German to Spanish
Correct I agree Nov 18, 2005

Anabel Martínez wrote:

Ok, so I definitely can understand some Italian, but that's not the same level of understanding as with Catalan and Valencian, it has nothing to do with that! In any case, people from Mallorca are much harder to understand, and they didn't claim separate languages, so please, don't mix politics here.


It was just a little black humor it is not the same the difference between Spanish and Catalan as between Catalan and Mallorcan, like Timothy says this is a matter of linguistics (not Proz.com)

here is a very interesting artikel
http://www.proel.org/mundo/valenciano.htm



It's obvious that they are 2 different varieties, but, like I won't translate into Chilean Spanish, I also tend to avoid translating into Valencian because I was born a Catalan. And I haven't heard anyone say Chilean Spanish is a different language to European Spanish. Is that so hard to understand?



Chile speak Spanish but Valencia speak Valencian not catalan.

what I want to say it is that is not OK to delete this denominations(as proposed for Galician)
Let for politics decide or it should be Valencian-catalan or Catalan-valencian, but both word should be considered.

Rgds


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Timothy Barton
Local time: 16:44
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Maybe... Nov 18, 2005

Toledo wrote:

Chile speak Spanish but Valencia speak Valencian not catalan.

what I want to say it is that is not OK to delete this denominations(as proposed for Galician)
Let for politics decide or it should be Valencian-catalan or Catalan-valencian, but both word should be considered.


Yes, maybe you're right. So we should also add Castellano as a seperate language...


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moken  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:44
English to Spanish
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Accents? This is very misleading Nov 19, 2005

Hello alvanice,

I am not well informed enough on the Catalan/Valencian debate, but there is undoubtedly a very heavy conflict of political interests behind the issue - on both parts.

Although I 'work' with languages, I think the term 'linguist' is a wee bit too big for me, so I'm not going to say whether Valencian is one thing or the other, because I think this issue is best left to the real McCoys.

alvanice wrote:

I'm Valencian and I can read and translate from Catalan and Mallorcan (by the way, Mallorca is a magic island) but I must say that I sometimes struggle to understand Catalan and Mallorcan speakers, something to do with the accent.



However I think the excerpt quoted dangerously confuses matters.

About 3 1/2 years ago, I moved to a small town on the island of Tenerife, Canary Islands, after 20-plus in Madrid. The local accent here is extremely difficult to understand, to the point of people initially having to repeat things to me 4 times, before finally giving up because I still couldn't understand a word they were saying. Apart from accents, there are all sorts of words used here which are not used in Madrid, but that perhaps are in Venezuela or Cuba. At times, I might as well have been in China.

However I am yet to hear anybody here claim 'Canarian' as being a separate language, much less on the grounds of different accents.

Further, while I was brought up in southern England, there is an endless range of English accents, many of which I have trouble understanding - basically understanding an accent is a matter of exposure to it, you get to understand accents and regional variations of languages the more you hear them

Having said all this, if you like calling the language you speak Valencian, that is absolutely fine by me, but I think that until there is a general and widespread agreement on the matter, we shouldn't be confusing matters further by introducing reasonings that veer far from the point.



By the way Tim,

I've always heard Galician and Valencian and don't see any need to change but, for good order's sake, how should we pronounce Gallegan? Where are we taking this word from? Taking the name from its Castillian stem is surely as absurd as calling Spanigh "Spagnol"?

If we are taking the word from its native stem and considering it's the second syllable that's stressed, surely we could say and write "Galegan"?


Mil sonrsias a ambos y a todos los demás

Álvariño Blanch ))


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