Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

INGÉNIEUR DE CORPS D’ÉTAT SECONDAIRE

English translation:

fit-out engineer

Added to glossary by Sameh Elnokaly
May 16 18:33
15 days ago
38 viewers *
French term

INGÉNIEUR DE CORPS D’ÉTAT SECONDAIRE

French to English Other Construction / Civil Engineering
Le titulaire du présent permis de travail est autorisé à occuper le poste de travail de

INGENIEUR DE CORPS D’ETAT SECONDAIRE
References
see
Change log

May 16, 2024 18:47: Yolanda Broad changed "Term asked" from "INGENIEUR DE CORPS D’ETAT SECONDAIRE" to "INGENIEUR DE CORPS D’ÉTAT SECONDAIRE"

May 16, 2024 18:47: Yolanda Broad changed "Term asked" from "INGENIEUR DE CORPS D’ÉTAT SECONDAIRE" to "INGÉNIEUR DE CORPS D’ÉTAT SECONDAIRE"

May 17, 2024 11:52: writeaway changed "Field" from "Other" to "Bus/Financial"

May 17, 2024 13:48: philgoddard changed "Field" from "Bus/Financial" to "Other"

Discussion

philgoddard May 17:
You could also say "finishings engineer".
philgoddard May 17:
Emmanuella's first reference is very helpful - it provides a full job description, and also disproves François' claim that this person is a government employee.
Emmanuella May 17:
@ Phil - J'avais également des doutes quant au terme' Ingénieur' cependant , d'après le lien Bouygues ci- dessous, cette profession existe.
@ François - un fonctionnaire d'Etat/ de l'Etat n'a pas besoin d'un permis de travail...
Annette Fehr May 17:
The idea that this person works for the State could be included in what follows the term, e.g. (to adopt Allegro's proposed term) "secondary trade engineer for the Ministry of Transportation"
philgoddard May 17:
François It feels weird saying this to a French native speaker, but you're wrong. You should withdraw all your disagrees.

Everyone: I'm not sure 'engineer' is the right word here.

Proposed translations

+3
4 hrs
Selected

fit-out engineer

I've rated this with only medium confidence because while corps d'état secondaire corresponds to 'fit-out', the term 'fit-out engineer' seems to be used mostly in relation to interior design rather than the actual 'bricks and mortar' aspect of said works. There may well be a cultural difference in how these matters are perceived.

Still, despite other possible interpretations, I think 'fit-out engineer' will get the message across.

Not how the terms I've underlined below match across the two languages.

« Les corps d’états architecturaux ou secondaire » sont eux aussi un nom d’usage pour classer certains métiers du bâtiment.
Ils représentent entre-autre les lots du bâtiment suivant : la menuiserie intérieure, la plâtrerie, la peinture, les revêtements durs et souples…
https://lecoindestravaux.re/top-9-des-termes-du-batiment-que...

finishing trades Mainly joinery, plasterwork, tiling, paintwork and flooring. The completed work may need protection from damage or the weather.
fit-out, fitting-out (USA outfitting) Work in the finishing trades, such as putting up suspended ceilings, fixing prefabricated joinery, laying carpets, etc.
Scott, Penguin Dict of Bldg


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Note added at 14 hrs (2024-05-17 08:35:22 GMT)
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Pour François
"Corps d'état : chacune des spécialités du bâtiment, et ceux qui les mettent en oeuvre : charpente, couverture, plomberie, peinture, etc., sont des corps d'état."
[Dicobat]
These building specialities are divided into two main groups gros oeuvre, the foundations, walls, floor slabs and roof, and seconde oeuvre, everything else that is more or less permanently fixed to the gros oeuvre.

Within the corps d'état secondaires things can get complicated, depending on the contract breakdown, contractors' and owners' habits, so you get further corps with a lot of overlapping subgroups. From my notes :

Corps d'état (trade)
CET - technique - Building services and equipment (BS&E), mechanical and electrical (M&E)
CES – corps d'état secondaires / second oeuvre – Fixtures and fittings (F&F) + BS&E/M&E, fitout, internal works, non-structural works (as opposed to gros oeuvre), building finishing(s) – marché de second oeuvre = building finishing market
CEF – Corps d'état de finitions (F&F)
CEA - architectural = F&F, fixtures and fittings, fixtures and finishings; FF&E, furniture, fixtures and equipment. Fitout. Interior fitout. As such, part of CES .
corps d'états séparés [not = CES] – (built as) a series of separate work packages
Peer comment(s):

disagree Francois Boye : If 'corps d'état' pertains to the construction and public works sector, why do you say fit-out engineer? A fit-out engineer does not cover the range of the construction and public works sector
2 hrs
And you're completely wide of the mark, I'm afraid.
agree Annette Fehr : This also 'fits' the bill. Thank you for providing the USA alternative!
10 hrs
agree Emmanuella
12 hrs
agree philgoddard : Emmanuella's reference in the discussion box supports this. It would be nice if François removed his disagrees, but I'm not holding my breath.
15 hrs
agree writeaway : Your field, your language pair, your expertise. Hard not to agree
15 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you all :)"
-1
30 mins

secondary project engineer

Peer comment(s):

disagree Francois Boye : You are missing the concept of corps d'état https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grands_corps_de_l'État
1 hr
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

secondary trade engineer

Tout corps d'état | French to English | Construction / Civil ...
ProZ.com
https://www.proz.com › construction-civil-engineering
8 Aug 2006 — A "corps d'état" is a building trade: painting, plumbing, electricity, heating, ventilation and air conditioning, lifts, joinery, floor ...


tous corps d'états | French to English | Construction / Civil ...
ProZ.com
https://www.proz.com › construction-civil-engineering
23 Nov 2010 — English translation: all trades ; French term or phrase: tous corps d'états.
Peer comment(s):

agree Ana Vozone
30 mins
thanks
disagree Francois Boye : Un corps d'état isn't a trade. Instead, it means that the said engineer belongs to a corps of the State.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grands_corps_de_l'État
48 mins
Really? Then please post your own answer, with evidence
agree Annette Fehr
13 hrs
thanks
Something went wrong...
-5
2 hrs

engineer of the State Infrastructure Corps

Qu'est-ce qu'un corps d'état secondaire ?

Corps d'état secondaires ou architecturaux (CES et CEA), pour aménager l'infrastructure (menuiseries, plâtres, carrelages et parquets, peinture, pose de cuisine ou d'une salle de bain, etc.) Corps d'état techniques, nécessaires à la mise en fonctionnement de l'infrastructure (électricité, plomberie, automatismes, etc.)

The concept of 'corps de l'état' means in France and the former French colonies that the state apparatus its divided into specialized, administrative and technical components with executive power.

To be a member of those corps, you must be a graduate of les 'Grandes Ecoles'.

See the entry 'Grands corps de l'Etat' in Wikipedia: it is written in English.
Peer comment(s):

disagree philgoddard : This starts off OK, and then you seem to get confused between 'corps d'état' and 'corps de l'état'.
2 hrs
Corps de l'état means state corps in the French tradition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grands_corps_de_l'État
disagree Adrian MM. : IATE: fr corps d'état COM corps de métier COM en * building trade* COM building craft COM trade COM craft
2 hrs
Les corps de l'état is a typical expression in French speaking countries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grands_corps_de_l'État
disagree Annette Fehr : A "corps" in English is, "an organized subdivision of the military establishment" (Merriam-Webster)
11 hrs
You have to understand what that expression means in French.
disagree Emmanuella : Francophone tout comme vous, je suis sans voix...Phil à raison.// voir lien Bouygues ci-dessus /https://www.agexea.com/corps-detat
13 hrs
Alors, les corps de l'état, cela ne dit rien ? Comprenez-vous comment les pays francophones sont dirigés ?
disagree AllegroTrans : Apart from totally ignoring "secondaire" you are conflicted between "d'état" and "de l'état": think about it please and remove your disagrees, at the very least
13 hrs
Le concept de corps d'état secondaire est expliqué ci-dessus
Something went wrong...
5 hrs
French term (edited): ingénieur de corps d’état secondaire

allied building(-)trades engineer

corps d’état : nowt to do with a government contractor, whilst a second/ary engineer is an assistant to a Merchant Naval first ship's engineer.

Example sentence:

L’élaboration des corps d’états secondaires est une des grandes parties d’une étude de prix en bâtiment avec le lancement, le chiffrage du gros-œuvre, le mémoire technique et la vente.

IATE: fr corps d'état COM corps de métier COM en * building trade* COM building craft COM trade COM craft

Peer comment(s):

disagree Francois Boye : You are missing the concept of corps de l'état https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grands_corps_de_l'État
46 mins
neutral AllegroTrans : https://www.taforum.org/directory/british-allied-trades-fede... Seems anglocentric; query would it be understood outside GB?
10 hrs
agree philgoddard : This is not my preferred answer, but just to counteract François' incorrect disagree...
2 days 15 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

19 hrs
Reference:

see

https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/construction-ci...

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Note added at   19 godz. (2024-05-17 14:30:39 GMT)
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corps d'état | French to German | Construction / Civil Engineering
ProZ.com
https://www.proz.com › kudoz › 40...
·
Translate this page
... et T.P.,Barbier Anmerkung corps d'état primaires = gros oeuvre;corps d'état secondaires = second oeuvre;REF:Adm.MPE Datum 24/09/2003. Terminus corps de métier

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Note added at   19 godz. (2024-05-17 14:33:17 GMT)
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https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_œuvre

En architecture et en construction, le second œuvre ou œuvre léger est ce qui n'est pas du gros œuvre fournissant la structure de l'ouvrage. C'est-à-dire tout ce qui ne concourt pas à la reprise des efforts subis permanents (les charges reçues par la construction et son poids propre) ou efforts temporaires (vent, séismes, etc.) : ce qui ne concourt pas à la solidité, à la stabilité de l'édifice.

Le second œuvre est fait par tous les corps de métiers intervenant (sauf exception) à la suite du gros œuvre, afin d’achever, d’aménager et d’équiper l'ouvrage.

Les différentes tâches sont sous surveillance et/ou exécutées par des ouvriers spécialisés.

Le second œuvre est censé avoir une durée de vie inférieure à celle de la structure et il faut habituellement procéder régulièrement à sa rénovation au cours du temps (une usure hors structure).

Charpente légère non porteuse d'étage
Couverture de toit
Enduits de façade
Bardage remplissage de façade
Menuiseries de portes et fenêtres intérieures et extérieures
Escaliers et mezzanines rapportés non intégrés à la structure porteuse
Isolation thermique et acoustique
Cloisons séparatives non porteuses
Peer comments on this reference comment:

neutral Francois Boye : Les tâches du second oeuvre sont généralement confiées à des ouvriers ou des techniciens, pas à des ingénieurs
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
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