Jun 1, 2012 08:05
12 yrs ago
56 viewers *
English term
in and about the premises
English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
Dear colleagues,
I have a question regarding the above mentioned expression.
"in and about the premises" is very often used in powers of attorney for the purchase of a house and I know of course that premises can mean a) matters previously referred to or b) a building with its grounds...
The standard sentences in such powers of attorney are
X has full power in and about the premises to do xy; in and about the premises to give discharge for xxx; X may do anything respecting the premises and so on
Usually I would say "on the premises" when referring to a plot of land rather than "in or about"...
My question to native speakers who regularly translate legal texts is as follows:
Do you read "in and about the premises" as
1) referring to something that's been said before in the actual power of attorney (the property is of course mentioned before the individual powers are enumerated) -> meaning is more abstract / "in and about the matter previously stated"
2) referring to the concrete building and the grounds; meaning in the building and around the grounds (in and about) -> meaning is more concrete
The decision for 1) or 2) affects my translation of course. Personally I think one could read it as both, but I would like to hear the opinion of native speakers with experience in legal translation.
Thanks in advance!
I have a question regarding the above mentioned expression.
"in and about the premises" is very often used in powers of attorney for the purchase of a house and I know of course that premises can mean a) matters previously referred to or b) a building with its grounds...
The standard sentences in such powers of attorney are
X has full power in and about the premises to do xy; in and about the premises to give discharge for xxx; X may do anything respecting the premises and so on
Usually I would say "on the premises" when referring to a plot of land rather than "in or about"...
My question to native speakers who regularly translate legal texts is as follows:
Do you read "in and about the premises" as
1) referring to something that's been said before in the actual power of attorney (the property is of course mentioned before the individual powers are enumerated) -> meaning is more abstract / "in and about the matter previously stated"
2) referring to the concrete building and the grounds; meaning in the building and around the grounds (in and about) -> meaning is more concrete
The decision for 1) or 2) affects my translation of course. Personally I think one could read it as both, but I would like to hear the opinion of native speakers with experience in legal translation.
Thanks in advance!
Responses
| 4 | in relation to the foregoing (meaning 1) |
Charles Davis
|
| 4 | 2 |
Charlesp
|
Responses
37 mins
in relation to the foregoing (meaning 1)
Contrary to what most non-lawyers would naturally suppose, "premises" does not refer to the property here; it means the matters set out in the foregoing.
I am indebted for this to Wordwatcher, who answered an earlier English>Spanish question on this expression. I can do no better than to quote his answer:
"The "premises" here are the earlier parts of the document. The term here is not a synonym for property. It is a standard and longstanding ending for many UK and US powers of attorney and has often misled translators. It is often used in a power of attorney which has no connection with immovable property.
See Wikipedia entry for "premises":
'Premises are land and buildings together considered as a property. This usage arose from property owners finding the word in their title deeds, where it originally correctly meant "the aforementioned; what this document is about", from Latin prae-missus = "placed before".'
The usage in powers of attorney reverts to the original meaning of the word."
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_spanish/law_general/362...
So "premises" came to mean "property" precisely because of this expression.
It is quite true; the phrase is used at the end of general powers of attorney that have nothing to do with property. For example:
http://www.delafe.com/form/frmgpowr.htm
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Note added at 46 mins (2012-06-01 08:51:24 GMT)
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Here is another example, in a power of attorney relating to bioenergy, where no building or property is involved in any way:
"The principal authorizes the attorney named above to receive on his/her behalf any and all notices, papers, and letters from the Alcohol, and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau in connection with all such matters, and grants him/her full power and authority to do all that is essential in and about the premises, as duly as the principal could do if personally present [...]"
http://bioenergy.msu.edu/uploads/files/125/Fuels/MedLarge/Po...
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Note added at 3 hrs (2012-06-01 11:20:49 GMT)
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It must be said, however, that this meaning would probably not occur to most people who do not have legal training or do not happen to have encountered the legal meaning of the phrase. A lay person's first reaction would be (as mine was) that "premises" means "property" here (meaning 2). As Wordwatcher said, it has often misled translators. Here's an example in another English>Spanish question, where an incorrect answer was accepted and the correct answer was rejected:
http://esl.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_spanish/law_general/656...
I am indebted for this to Wordwatcher, who answered an earlier English>Spanish question on this expression. I can do no better than to quote his answer:
"The "premises" here are the earlier parts of the document. The term here is not a synonym for property. It is a standard and longstanding ending for many UK and US powers of attorney and has often misled translators. It is often used in a power of attorney which has no connection with immovable property.
See Wikipedia entry for "premises":
'Premises are land and buildings together considered as a property. This usage arose from property owners finding the word in their title deeds, where it originally correctly meant "the aforementioned; what this document is about", from Latin prae-missus = "placed before".'
The usage in powers of attorney reverts to the original meaning of the word."
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_spanish/law_general/362...
So "premises" came to mean "property" precisely because of this expression.
It is quite true; the phrase is used at the end of general powers of attorney that have nothing to do with property. For example:
http://www.delafe.com/form/frmgpowr.htm
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 46 mins (2012-06-01 08:51:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Here is another example, in a power of attorney relating to bioenergy, where no building or property is involved in any way:
"The principal authorizes the attorney named above to receive on his/her behalf any and all notices, papers, and letters from the Alcohol, and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau in connection with all such matters, and grants him/her full power and authority to do all that is essential in and about the premises, as duly as the principal could do if personally present [...]"
http://bioenergy.msu.edu/uploads/files/125/Fuels/MedLarge/Po...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2012-06-01 11:20:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
It must be said, however, that this meaning would probably not occur to most people who do not have legal training or do not happen to have encountered the legal meaning of the phrase. A lay person's first reaction would be (as mine was) that "premises" means "property" here (meaning 2). As Wordwatcher said, it has often misled translators. Here's an example in another English>Spanish question, where an incorrect answer was accepted and the correct answer was rejected:
http://esl.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_spanish/law_general/656...
1 day 18 hrs
2
In the building, and the property (land) surrounding it.
One wouldn't say "on the building" - so it means inside and outside as well.
One wouldn't say "on the building" - so it means inside and outside as well.
Discussion