Jan 21, 2010 06:09
14 yrs ago
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Hebrew term

מי ישורם

Hebrew to English Law/Patents Poetry & Literature
מי ישורם

Discussion

Ron Armon Jan 21, 2010:
What you're describing is more like בל ישוער 1. מי ישורנו/ישורם
means quite simply
מי יכול לצפות (אותו/אותם) מראש
Literally - "לצפות מראש" is "predict" in English.
The synonym "forsee" (same meaning) is particularly nice,
because it uses the stem "see" just like the Hebrew "ישורם"

2. Your suggestion "Who can estimate" lacks the future focus.
In the phrase "Who can estimate the number of casualties in Haiti"
for example - you wouldn't use מי ישורם

3. Your second suggestion - "Who could Imagine", is really used in quite the opposite way than you meant. It is retrospective!:
"Who could Imagine" = "מי היה משער"
or "מי *היה* יכול לצפות מראש"
and it is mostly used for things that DID happen, not imaginary :-)
"Who could imagine that Israel would survive the 48' war?"
"מי היה משער שדווקא בגן-עדן כמו האיטי יקרה אסון כזה?"
Chaya Cohen Jan 21, 2010:
I also think that "estimate" isn't quite right, but the problem with "forsee" is that it means "לחזות" or "לראות את הנולד" - something that has happened or may well happen - like "We forsee rain tomorrow" or "we forsaw the fall on Wall Street" and "מי ישורון" refers to something completely unthinkable that hasn't happened yet or could of happened and didn't (usually bad). That's why I sugested "Who could imagine" - it expresses the meaning in other words.
Ron Armon Jan 21, 2010:
Further discussion with Chaya Phrases or idioms using this form are NOT reserved to unlikely events/outcomes or ad ones, but to any consequences.
It means simply "who can tell (the outcomes)" - "Its difficult to guess/foretell (the consequences)", or in Hebrew - מי יכול לחזות אותם.

That's exactly what "Foresee" means - לחזות, לצפות מראש
(Please look it up :-) ==> http://milon.g.co.il/targum/Foresee)
"Foresee" is also not limited to a specific kind of outcom.

I think "estimate" really misses the part of outcomes and future.
You can estimate the present status of something.

Some examples in Hebrew:
ואחריתו מי ישורנה (bad)
but also (using plural):
צעד חשוב שפירותיו מי ישורם

Proposed translations

2 hrs

Who could estimate

Used when something unimaginable us likely to take place or could have taken place

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Note added at 2 hrs (2010-01-21 08:20:59 GMT)
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The Hebrew is much stronger than the English translation, if you want something less acurate but with more of the feeling, you can write " Who could begin to imagine" or even, " In your wildest dreams you couldn't begin to imagine"
Example sentence:

Who could estimate the amount of damage the bombing was likely to have caused.

Peer comment(s):

agree Textpertise : Comes from the root שור
37 mins
Thank you, תזכה למצוות!
disagree Ron Armon : I beg to differ. "imagine" and "estimate" are not accurate enough. ש.ו.ר means "see" or in this case "[fore]see"
3 hrs
As concerning the Hebrew root, you are right, but "forsee" in English means more of a prediction while the Hebrew term is used to express a situation that is so bad we don't want to or cannot predict it - a situation best left to the imagination .
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+1
5 hrs

Who can foresee (them)

and מי ישורנו =
Who can foresee (it)

The stem ש.ו.ר means "to see" as you probably know
שורו הביטו וראו...
(You could translate שורו as "Behold!" quite exactly)

This "sight" is often figurative as in "seeing ahead",
which means foresee/foretell/predict.

Note that מי ישורם/ מי ישורנו/ מי ישורנה
are usually used in context of end/outcome/results:
ואחריתו מי ישורנה

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Note added at 5 hrs (2010-01-21 11:50:50 GMT)
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See:
http://he.wiktionary.org/wiki/אחריתו_מי_ישורנה

and
http://www.babylon.com/definition/אחריתו_מי_ישורנה/Hebrew
Peer comment(s):

agree Garsan
264 days
Thanks Garsan! (Wow - That's and old one...)
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