| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Kudoz: Posting both a competing answer and a disagree vote (doesn't feel right) Thread poster: Fred Neild (X)
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Nikki Graham 
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Spanish to English
| Justifying answer | Nov 2, 2005 |
Claudia Iglesias wrote:
I tried to explain that the fact that rules mention what boxes are for also indicates what they are not for.
As we have to maintain a pleasant working environment we must take into account different sensibilities and culture perceptions of the same facts.
If I feel that in order to justify my answer I need to point out why another's answer doesn't satisfy me (i.e. disagree with it) within my answer box, where is the problem? I see this as arguing the point and explaining clearly to the asker why you feel another answer/other answers are not good enough and have provided your own. If you are not allowed to argue your case properly as this could be seen as "unpleasant" and potentially upset someone's feelings because you do not agree, I see little point in bothering with the whole process.
| | | | | Enriching comments vs pure critics | Nov 2, 2005 |
Nikki Graham wrote:
There is very often not enough room in the disagree/agree/neutral boxes to say everything that you feel you have to say. In the real world, people are constantly quoting others and either agreeing/disagreeing with all or part of what they have said. What on earth is wrong with that? Why do some people feel that answers are sacred? We all have different opinions and a right to express them, and doing so in your answer box doesn't appear to me to be against the rules.
Well, I disagree with your last sentence but I agree on the fact that some linguistic discussions that take place in KudoZ can be very enriching.
But I compare some others to some kind of jokes or politicians. There are bad taste jokes that have victims and try to make fun of something that is not really funny. There are politicians whom instead of showing what they are able to do try to denigrate what the opponents do.
I have seen, even in forums, links to KudoZ questions only meant to criticize in a negative manner either the asker, or the answerer or those who peer comment. I dislike that.
If more room for discussing other's answers is given in the KudoZ boxes the risks will be bigger.
If I have to chose between having more place for comments about other answers or strictly sticking to the rules, as a moderator who would have to follow all the exchanges and intervene, I'd chose the more strict option, unfortunately, because I enjoy constructive discussions but also know how some people behave.
By the way, I haven't said yet what I think about Fred's main point. I don't see a conflict of interests between answering and peeragreements.
Claudia
| | | | | It depends on the other person and how he takes it | Nov 2, 2005 |
Nikki Graham wrote:
If I feel that in order to justify my answer I need to point out why another's answer doesn't satisfy me (i.e. disagree with it) within my answer box, where is the problem? I see this as arguing the point and explaining clearly to the asker why you feel another answer/other answers are not good enough and have provided your own. If you are not allowed to argue your case properly as this could be seen as "unpleasant" and potentially upset someone's feelings because you do not agree, I see little point in bothering with the whole process.
I think that this will depend on the other answer's author.
As in real life, some people don't mind being pointed at with a finger, others will feel naked.
Another image: when a teacher gives back the exams. In some cultures the teacher will say the marks loudly, in others the marks will be communicated privately and will be kept secret. Here we have all the cultures together.
Claudia
[Edited at 2005-11-02 12:52]
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 05:05
German to English
+ ...
| What would be the alternative? | Nov 2, 2005 |
Ditch the whole points business, of course! Problem solved.
Derek Gill Franßen wrote:
I see the apparent conflict of interest, but I don't know if I'd like the alternative.
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Fred Neild (X)
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER
Fuad Yahya wrote:
When an answerer posts a negative comment on an answer I have provided, I try to give them the benefit of the doubt, especially if the comment is valid, and only address the content of the comment. But if the comment is part of a pattern of excessive competitiveness, I sometimes reply "comment by a competing answerer - conflict of interest."
I believe the alternative (which I hadn't thought about before this discussion) is to include a new option (mandatory when applicable) as I said before:
Agree
Neutral
Disagree
competing answerer - conflict of interest
[Edited at 2005-11-02 13:04]
| | | | | To score or not to score... | Nov 2, 2005 |
MarcPrior wrote:
Ditch the whole points business, of course! Problem solved.
Marc, I see your point (no pun intended ), but if points were done away with, in the long run I would probably stop answering altogether. In my opinion, the points (or the competitiveness brought about by the points) are the motor of the whole KudoZ section. Without them I think there would be a lot less activity and that would decrease the amount of traffic to the profiles, which in turn would be detrimental to the advertising effect answering KudoZ questions has.
| | | | Nikki Graham
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Spanish to English
| If you can't stand the heat... | Nov 2, 2005 |
Claudia Iglesias wrote:
As in real life, some people don't mind being pointed at with a finger, others will feel naked.
Frankly, if you don't want to risk having your answers disagreed with, don't give any. However, if you are prepared to publicly state your opinion, in the forums or in Kudoz, you have to accept that there may be someone out there who will not only disagree with you, but tell you as well.
Anyway, I agree with Marc. Get rid of the points system and solve a lot of the problems we are constantly arguing about.
| | | | Fred Neild (X)
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Losing the point | Nov 2, 2005 |
Nikki Graham wrote:
Frankly, if you don't want to risk having your answers disagreed with, don't give any.
Hey, hey, hey.
I think we are losing the point. That would have more to do with the topic suggested by Derek, 'sensitivity'.
This is about 'conflict of interests'.
Regarding points I agree with Derek, no points, no answers.
[Edited at 2005-11-02 13:15]
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| What`s this fuss about? | Nov 2, 2005 |
To everybody in this forum
I really don`t understand what this fuss is about.
My own rules (based on Kudoz rules, ethical principles and common sense):
1. When I don´t give an answer.
I have the right to agree or disagree with somebody else`s answer. When I found the appropiate answer has already been given, I give my agree. I disagree only if one answer is "TOO" wrong, which can mislead the asker. I give a neutral comment if the answer does not deserve a... See more To everybody in this forum
I really don`t understand what this fuss is about.
My own rules (based on Kudoz rules, ethical principles and common sense):
1. When I don´t give an answer.
I have the right to agree or disagree with somebody else`s answer. When I found the appropiate answer has already been given, I give my agree. I disagree only if one answer is "TOO" wrong, which can mislead the asker. I give a neutral comment if the answer does not deserve an agree/disagree but it needs someting to help clarify that answer or answerer.
2. When I give my own answer.
In this case, I try not to interfere with other colleagues` answers. However, as in the above case, I state some neutral comment to help the asker AND the answer understand the issue or when I consider it to be VERY wrong. We always have to keep in mind that Kudoz answers - at the end - make up the KOG. I only give a disagree - in this case- if one of those answers is obviously, grossly wrong (this is exceptional).
I don´t get mad if a colleague disagrees or neutrals me. I believe he/she does it in good faith, as I do.
A Proz member, a few months ago, wrote me a very obnoxious email stating that I placed a neutral (with explanation) on his answer with bad intentions and in order to get the point for my answers. I don`t do that. I act the way I stated above. There is a saying in Spanish: "el ladrón piensa que todos son de su condición" ("thieves believe that everybody else behaves like him" or "Evildoers always think the worst of others"). This member is not a member any more. Moderators warned him several times on ethical grounds.
In short, I think we can rely on colleagues, on moderators, staff, and the Proz community as a whole, to be sure that there are no ehical issues involved.
Walter Landesman
[Edited at 2005-11-03 12:14] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Nikki, I didn't say that | Nov 2, 2005 |
Nikki Graham wrote:
Frankly, if you don't want to risk having your answers disagreed with, don't give any. However, if you are prepared to publicly state your opinion, in the forums or in Kudoz, you have to accept that there may be someone out there who will not only disagree with you, but tell you as well.
In the rules you can also read that when you answer you must be ready for receiving peer agreements in the boxes for that.
You remind me of what happened to me when my children were young. I bought a big whiteboard, as large as those used in classrooms, I put it in the wall at their height, they would have enough place to draw anything. But they enjoyed drawing in the wall, besides the board.
Claudia
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 05:05
German to English
+ ...
Derek,
I played the KudoZ game briefly, but I found it just too frustrating. Terminology issues are often complex, and terms need to be discussed properly. Just think of the aspects of subject matter, source language comprehension, target language usage, frequency, dialects (e.g. UK vs. US), register, etc. That's already enough to be getting on with. Then add the whole KudoZ baggage - is it a proposal or a comment, am I agreeing/disagreeing/being neutral, what am I allowed to say, t... See more Derek,
I played the KudoZ game briefly, but I found it just too frustrating. Terminology issues are often complex, and terms need to be discussed properly. Just think of the aspects of subject matter, source language comprehension, target language usage, frequency, dialects (e.g. UK vs. US), register, etc. That's already enough to be getting on with. Then add the whole KudoZ baggage - is it a proposal or a comment, am I agreeing/disagreeing/being neutral, what am I allowed to say, to whom, in what box, how is someone who by definition doesn't know the answer supposed to "pick" one, dangers of incorrect "answers" being sanctioned and entering usage, how important is speed in answering, how important are Browniz in agreeing, etc. etc. - no thanks! I ask and answer questions in other venues, where proper discussion is possible. In KudoZ, people spend more time discussing the KudoZ system than the actual terminology, it seems.
Marc ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nikki Graham
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Spanish to English
| Back on point | Nov 2, 2005 |
Fred Neild wrote:
Nikki Graham wrote:
Frankly, if you don't want to risk having your answers disagreed with, don't give any.
Hey, hey, hey.
I think we are losing the point. That would have more to do with the topic suggested by Derek, 'sensitivity'.
This is about 'conflict of interests'.
The point I am trying to make (but obviously failing miserably) is that I don't see why a neutral or disagree comment made by someone who also answers the question should be seen as a conflict of interest ALL the time. As Ian already mentioned, most of us have better things to do than trash someone's answer to get points. Most of us, I believe, are trying to find a solution, which is often not obvious and certainly not easy. If you suspect foul play, contact a moderator.
With regards to the whiteboard, Claudia: I have often commented on another's answer in my answer box and they have done the same. We have often bounced ideas off each other until we feel we have arrived at a solution. If this is indeed against the rules (and my interpretation is that it isn't, so perhaps clarification is needed), then I would have yet another reason not to partake in what I thought was an interesting intellectual exercise.
By the way, given that you are not allowed to comment on an asker's choice, disagreeing with the winning answer is often the only way of signalling to the asker that you feel he/she has made a mistake, since askers are sent notification of all disagrees.
[Edited at 2005-11-02 14:16]
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USER00230 (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
German to English
| agree with Fred | Nov 2, 2005 |
I agree with what Fred is getting at. Possibly the neutral and negative comments should be abolished. If you agree you can do so quickly, but if you want to disagree you have to write your own answer and explain your disagreement.
oh, and having just read the comments by MarcPrior I agree wholeheartedly.
[Edited at 2005-11-02 14:48]
| | | | | Throwing the baby with the bath water | Nov 2, 2005 |
MarcPrior wrote:
Ditch the whole points business, of course! Problem solved.
That is like forbidding food to avoid food poisoning.
The point I was trying to make is simply that KudoZ, as currently structured, is a competitive game. Competition is not a bad thing in itself. It has a positinve side (it motivates with a symbolic incentive) and a negative side (some people get caught in its trappings, become junkies, would do anything just to win, and, if they can't, would at least hurt others' chances, etc.). This is the case in every competitive game in existance (baseball, the Olympics, the Stock Market, etc.). That is why competitive games have rules. The rules help prevent some forms of abuse (drugs in sports, insider trading in the stock market, etc.), but there are other forms of abuse that are left to the discretion of the players and the collective pressure of the community.
Currently, the KudoZ rules allow a competing answerer to make a negative comment on another answer. The question is what do you do when that happens to you?
Well, this morning, I found that a fellow answerer has placed a diagree vote and a negative comment below an answer of mine. I replied to his negive comment by: 1) addressing his crititque, and 2) by reminding him (and everyone else) that, since he is a competing answerer, his negative input involves a conflict of interest, and, therefore, is less credible than negative comments by others.
May I also add that, according to my reading, the original topic of the thread is not about negative comments in general, but rather about negative comments by competing answerers.
| | | | | Oh dear, the rules could get more and more complicated. | Nov 2, 2005 |
Bill Smyth wrote:
Possibly the neutral and negative comments should be abolished. If you agree you can do so quickly, but if you want to disagree you have to write your own answer and explain your disagreement.
If it gets that complicated, it will be a whole new system which will be more difficult to use (like the EU regulation defining the shape of a banana).
In this thread it seems that 3 or 4 people want strict rules that are strictly enforced - even at the risk of scaring the rest of us away.
FWIW, I think that the "neutral" and "disagree" comment options are useful (even for "competing" answerers), and that we should act as if we are dealing with adults and professionals who will use these options pragmatically and with tact.
If somebody oversteps the bounds of tact and decency, a gentle (!!) reminder may be appropriate, but otherwise we should simply ignore the incident and get on with our work (and trust the self-regulatory powers of an exchange between professionals).
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