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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

de ce et/ou ces derniers

English translation:

upon first request by the latter party or parties

Added to glossary by Maria Constant (X)
Aug 3, 2007 13:54
16 yrs ago
5 viewers *
French term

de ce et/ou ces derniers

French to English Law/Patents Law: Contract(s) Loan contract
L'Emprunteur devra indemniser le Mandataire et/ou les Banques, à première demande, de ce et/ou ces derniers, contre tout préjudice, perte ou frais encouru en conséquence de toute notification par télécopie effecutée par l'Emprunteur.

TIA
Proposed translations (English)
3 +3 upon the first request of the latter party or parties
4 +2 of any or all of the latter
4 +1 upon a first demand by it or them
4 upon (first) request of the latter
Change log

Aug 8, 2007 08:00: Maria Constant (X) Created KOG entry

Discussion

Dylan Edwards Aug 4, 2007:
Looking at the English alone, one might take "latter" to mean "the Banks" alone.
Dylan Edwards Aug 4, 2007:
Those who are in favour of saying "the latter" are, I take it, seeing "l'Emprunteur" as "the former" (as if it could be "upon the first request of the former"!). I believe this "former/latter" stuff gets in the way of clear understanding here.

Proposed translations

+3
1 min
Selected

upon the first request of the latter party or parties

one way of saying it
Peer comment(s):
agree writeaway : yes. it's basically 'the' way to say it. latter Party and/or Parties
7 mins
agree Claire Chapman
2 hrs
agree Patrice
2 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Not easy to choose here but this is what I ended up using. Thanks to everyone for their help."
+2
2 mins

of any or all of the latter

Or just: of any or all of them. "The latter" is not really necessary!
Peer comment(s):
agree BusterK
3 mins
Thanks Buster.
agree Julie Barber : latter is necessary though!
7 mins
Thanks juliebarba. I have been looking for my Plain English Society - Legal Glossary CD!
neutral writeaway : latter is definitely necessary. any or all isn't boilerplate legalese.
24 mins
Yes, "latter" is necessary. I have approved for signature lots of contracts that are liberally peppered with "any or all" by the solicitors who wrote them.
neutral Dylan Edwards : but does "any or all of the latter" mean any or all of the banks (excluding the Mandataire, which might be taken to be "the former"). / Strictly then, the banks on their own can't be a possibility here, because that would have to be "ces dernières".
2 hrs
Ah yes, good point. The ambiguity is, however, there in the original! One can appeal to logic: the banks would demand €s for themselves and so "dernier(s)" "latter" includes the Mandataire and/or any or all of the banks.
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3 mins

upon (first) request of the latter

.


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Note added at 4 mins (2007-08-03 13:59:02 GMT)
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dans la mesure ou "latter" peut être le singulier ou le pluriel cela rempli la condition du français.
Peer comment(s):
neutral BusterK : l'avantage de la solution de BD Finch est qu'elle explicite que cette demande peut être faite par l'un des deux ou par les deux ensemble.
5 mins
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+1
7 mins

upon a first demand by it or them

@@

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 27 mins (2007-08-03 14:21:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

plian English!!
Peer comment(s):
agree Dylan Edwards : - assuming, of course, the Mandataire is an "it" - but I agree absolutely, use plain English, and avoid "latter" especially when there isn't a clearly identifiable "former".
2 hrs
thanks
neutral B D Finch : But this doesn't work if only one of the banks were to make the demand - unless you are assuming that the Mandataire is not covered, which would leave him eligible for compensation but unable to demand it!
4 hrs
the same can be said of the original French text
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